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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Doc,

i gave you a rather detailed analysis as to why the accurate translation is most definitely not pierce...
You stated you proved that the original text said the verse said "like a lion".



For the second time what post did you prove that in?

Doc, i am responding on my phone and am unable to track back to my posts. howeverm ive given two posts on the topic, both of which has sources that indicate that the original text says kari. even your jews for jesus site syas the original hebrew say kari, lion like.

if you beleive the original text said pierce you are welcome to present it. but the jewsforjesus site doesnt support this idea.
 
You stated you proved that the original text said the verse said "like a lion".

For the second time what post did you prove that in?


Yes. Psalm 22 is quite interesting in regards to the story.
Obviously, first and for most, Mathew 27:46, where jesus says:
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" is a reference to the first line of psalm 22. This has been the source for the claim that this psalm is a prophecy of Jesus.

Interestingly, it has the following implications (not mutually exclusive)
1.) Psalm 22 clearly is written in the first person by a follower of god. Nowhere in the text of Psalm 22 does it suggest that the speaker is, in fact, god. But is merely one who is singled out and beaten upon by the wicked people surrounding him. The Psalm speaks of glory to come, regardless of the strife being observed today. That one day, the Lord's kingdom will be everywhere. that the "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever." (inherit the earth, anyone?)

2.) it was a clearly intentional allusion in matthew. Whether or not this allusion was intentional by the author of matthew or by (in fact) jesus, is unkown. NO extrabiblical account exists of Jesus' words, so we can't know it is a fabrication. What we do know is that who ever made the allusion made it expressly with the idea that the speaker of the words (Why hast thou forsaken me) considered himself a man and not god.


So, if we do accept the idea that the psalm is prophecy, and prophecy fulfilled, christians must accept that this prophecy states Jesus was a man and not god.


But I do not believe that. It seems to me another example of the Jesus narrative being of redemption and the eminent coming of god. Remember that Christianity emerged from Jewish apocalyptic cults. Cults that would be familiar with passages like Psalm 22, which is incredibly apocalyptic in it's statements. The author of Matthew most likely made the allusion to emphasize the idea that god will win in the end and his followers will be the big winners, which is sort of the point of Psalm 22.


ETA:
Interestingly, a Jewish translation of the Jewish Psalm 22 states:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms22.html
Psalm 22:17 " For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."


Interesting how the bible translation has lacks the "like a lion" part.
The original Hebrew text states:
יז כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי.

Notice the word:
כָּאֲרִי,
which translates as aryan, or like a lion

go one step further from:
http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/jew.php

ARI (1) אֲרִי m Hebrew
Means "lion" in Hebrew.


From another site we are given a bit more clarity of what this states:
"In Hebrew, the verse reads karah ari yad regal. Literally, mauled lion hands feet. Or, the lion mauled my hands and feet. The KJV, and virtually all Christian translations, completely ignores the word ari. It’s easy to see why they do that – because it significantly alters the context of the verse. If we’re talking about lions mauling the Psalmist rather than the Psalmist being pierced by some unknown entity, then it’s clear it doesn’t refer to Jesus. Fabricating messianic prophecy via incorrect translation is a modus operandi of Christians today and has been throughout history."
http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/id18.html


Do you not think it odd that the KJV translation of the bible completely omits this "like a lion" part?


That one?
 
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Why is it off topic when I quote US Presidents, but not when you do it?
Doc only does it when he throws "American presidents" on the DOCdice.

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Well, since you're requesting:

John Adams said this:

http://www.eadshome.com/JohnAdams.htm

Jefferson claimed he was a Christian and that the teachings of Jesus were the most moral and sublime he has read.

Ben Franklin said Christianity is the greatest religion that ever was or will be.

And James Madison contributed to a law that punished Sabbath breakers,
and said this

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

Now back to this topic.



DOC:

Why do you reject quotes that cast doubt on the bible, but accept those that say some parts are decent, even when the quotes are made by the same people?

Could it be bias?
 
DOC:

Why do you reject quotes that cast doubt on the bible, but accept those that say some parts are decent, even when the quotes are made by the same people?

Could it be bias?


Someone thinks so . . .


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended for us to forego their use.

- Galileo Galilei



I'm nearly over Presidents. We might have Scientists for the next set of text cards.
 
And James Madison contributed to a law that punished Sabbath breakers,
and said this

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
Sounds like it's straight out of the Inquisition. :D
 
Ben Franklin said Christianity is the greatest religion that ever was or will be.
Oh really.......


"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

[Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728]


"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

[Benjamin Franklin, in _Toward The Mystery_]


"
The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason."

[Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758]


"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers"

[Priestley's Autobiography, p. 60, on Benjamin Franklin]


Paul

:) :) :)
 
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DOC:

Why do you reject quotes that cast doubt on the bible, but accept those that say some parts are decent, even when the quotes are made by the same people?

Could it be bias?
Only one of the 4 quotes seems to cast doubt on the bible and that quote by John Adams was vague. But Adams also said this

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]"

http://www.eadshome.com/JohnAdams.htm

Martin Luther complained a lot about the Church too, but he in no way doubted the bible.
 
Only one of the 4 quotes seems to cast doubt on the bible and that quote by John Adams was vague. But Adams also said this

"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]"


You realize you just proved X's point, yes?
 
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended for us to forego their use.

- Galileo Galilei

That's why books by Norman Geisler and Ralph Muncaster sell. They are designed to be read with sense, reason, and intellect.
 
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