AE 911 Truth at Full Juggernaut Strength (1,000)

Now all of this is very clever math, and I'm quite impressed at the ingenuity involved. I do think it misses the point, though.

AE911 with 1000 members has the same public profile as AE911 with 100 or even 10 members. Gage and occassionally some others (like Truther Derek) are the only members anyone ever sees. This is the point that the Truth 'tards seem to be missing. If there were press conferences of architects and engineers talkinga about this all the time, if the members of AE911 were constantly in the media about this, if they were involved in a public dialogue about this, things would be different. But instead, it's Dicky G. talking at a mosque or to a bunch of neo-Nazis in Australia or appearing in an advertizing brochure in New Zealand.

Sure, none of us here are surprised by this. I'm more puzzled by the problem that adults with no obvious brain damage could be convinced by this. Who cares how many people they can sign up? Their organization has no presence or visability. They are not a real lobby group. They only exist on paper...or should I say, on the Internet.
 
This is a good point.

Whatever happened to that Dwain Deets guy? He was flavor of the month for a while, but now... ?

NWO get him or something? :dl:
 
No matter how foolish this all is, he could be making a lot more noise than he is. It's almost as if he's making enough low-level noise to convince the teenage kids to donate money from their PT jobs at McDonald's, but not enough to attract any real attention. If he held the kind of events I'm talking about, it would be clear that no more than a handful of the 1,000 names on his list would show up. The 5 or 10 who really did show up would be babbling about the Lunar Landing Hoax and asking who really shot Kennedy. Then where would he be?

No, no Dick is much better off keeping it low key and telling his Truther friends he has a huge following of construction professional ready to help at a moment's notice. In a sense, it's a scam that Dick's pulling on the Truth Movement. Our JREF Truther friends and their high school pals on the major Truth forums don't have a clue about professional organizations and the production of academic knowledge. It all sounds good to them.

Maybe it's even a good thing. If Truther Dick wasn't out there scaming the Truth Movement with his low key message for the retards, who knows what kind of leadership they could dig up?
 
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"What’s Next for AE911Truth?" — Richard Gage, AIA Jan 20, 2010

From 911blogger: What’s Next for AE911Truth? — Richard Gage, AIA Jan 20, 2010

Apparently, any political strategy has been abandoned, unless Gage is keeping his cards close to his chest.

The political / sociological questions are obviously (to me) much more vexing than growing the membership of ae911truth. In a way, I can't blame him - good ideas for attacking the systemic corruption of the US government are few and far between.

I will predict that, unless there's even a failed attempt to transform the ae911truth organization's size into some sort of political result, a lot of 911 truthers will catch on - say, within a year or two - and there will be a lot less enthusiasm for ae911truth.

OTOH, this could be a good thing - there's some very dedicated activists within the 911 truth field (I'm thinking of We Are Change), and if they come to the realization that they are on a road that leads nowhere, politically, they can start to focus their attention on the bigger issue, which is solving the problem of systemic corruption. It's my opinion that the 911 truth movement is remarkably non-partisan. Not only do you not find Democratic and Republican lemmings, you find what seems to me to be a near-universal recognition that both parties are corrupt, and in at least a perverse way, collaborate to disempower the public.

Unfortunately, a lot of 911 Truthers go too far (perhaps under the influence of Alex Jones), and say that the D's and R's are a complete facade, just put there by the NWO to fool us. They don't seem to know that first past the post voting leads almost inexorably to a 2 party system*, and that the the plutocratic control of government can develop quite well without a tiny cabal of cigar-smoking NWO types pulling all the strings, behind the scenes. That makes for a less entertaining narrative, however, which is probably why Alex Jones doesn't go there. He may have a more accurate picture of discrete, somewhat hidden and greatly obscured, injurious conspiracies - the motivation for and utility of, being eminently logical - than the average Joe, and he may interview great guests, but if he didn't project colorful, centrally controlled NWO plots into the gaps between his knowledge base, he'd probably lose some audience.

It's my impression that a lot of the WAC groups are younger. Hopefully, as they mature, they can increase their political effectiveness, and even provide a huge spark to a democratic revival. To this end, if there are any WAC'ers reading this, they might want to check out "Golden Rule: The Investment Theory of Party Competition and the Logic of Money-Driven Political Systems" by Thomas Ferguson. Said one Nathan Aschbacher, in a comment to his own excellent diary at FireDogLake, called The Flawed Logic of Supporting Coakley

One of the most interesting books I’ve read lately is, “Golden Rule: The Investment Theory of Party Competition and the Logic of Money-Driven Political Systems” by Thomas Ferguson. When you analyze the comparative value of a vote to a Dollar, and understand the distribution of them amongst a populous, it’s exceedingly clear that your vote (both at the point of election and through the term of office) is worth essentially nothing in the shaping of policy.

A modern day example of this is TARP.

The WAC'ers don't need to become experts in political game theory, but if they learn what the real pressure points are in our corrupted system, they should be able to re-focus their energy and idealism to lead the charge to bring about real change.

* Actually, according to Nathan Aschbacher, (who knows some game theory) the long term trend is to a single dominant party

A first-past-the-post system doesn’t actually incentivize two parties. It incentivizes one party. Because the outcome is winner-take-all, the trend amongst players in the game is to appeal to the criteria that they most believe will win them the plurality; as such, over time the two broad coalitions (parties) that form will trend further toward significant overlap as they both chase the same set of criteria. In American politics today that criteria centers largely around big-money; which is why both parties have become pro-corporate parties. New Democrat neoliberalism is the real-world manifestation of first-past-the-post game theory probabilistic outcomes.

I can actually show the mathematics that derives this conclusion if you like, but I don’t have a very good way to display the theorems and show my work in plaintext, and I don’t know how to add images to comments, so we’d have to find some other forum of display. There are ********* of books on this topic though, three of the seminal works are on my shelf thanks to that good ol’ Comp Sci curriculum.
 
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Well that was a very thoughtless self-serving analysis of the situation, metamars. One that completely dodges the most important question regarding AE911Ts' future growth (or lack thereof).

How is a technical organization going to grow when the basis of its existence is one or more theories that have already been scientifically disproven?
 
Well that was a very thoughtless self-serving analysis of the situation, metamars. One that completely dodges the most important question regarding AE911Ts' future growth (or lack thereof).

How is a technical organization going to grow when the basis of its existence is one or more theories that have already been scientifically disproven?

Would those "scientific disproofs" be as solid as your own mathematical research?
 
The point is, if you want to do politics, do politics.

If you want to do engineering, do engineering.

Attempting to use erroneous engineering claims to support a political effort is a recipe for failure.

Attempting to use politics of any kind to support an engineering theory of any kind is a recipe for failure.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
The point is, if you want to do politics, do politics.

If you want to do engineering, do engineering.

Attempting to use erroneous engineering claims to support a political effort is a recipe for failure.

I'd go beyond this, and say that attempting to use correct engineering, legal, and even common sense criteria to support a political effort is a recipe for failure, when the the political system is systemically corrupted.

That is the point that both debunkers and the 911 Truthers don't seem to grok very easily. As the game is currently configured and being played, if you go against plutocratic/corporatist interests, you will lose.

Attempting to use politics of any kind to support an engineering theory of any kind is a recipe for failure.

Respectfully,
Myriad

You should have stopped writing at the previous line. Who is accusing anybody of using politics to support an engineering theory? AFAIK, not even the JREF'ers.
 
I had to check the start date on this thread to make sure it wasn't one from 2006 suddenly ressurected.

What a sad charade on the part of Truthers.
 
Ah, now I get it. Based on some of the adherents' other beliefs, it all makes sense.

1 - Assume grand conspiracy - NWO / Bilderbergs / Jews / Whatever. God of the gaps.

2 - Perceive engineering event given your prior belief of said conspiracy.

3 - Selectively apply engineering concepts to invent ways to make the "conspirators" responsible for said event.

And this would explain:
I'd go beyond this, and say that attempting to use correct engineering, legal, and even common sense criteria to support a political effort is a recipe for failure, when the the political system is systemically corrupted.
Got it. So that's why ae911truth doesn't use correct engineering, legal or even common sense. Because the political system is systemically corrupted. Ends justify the means. Got it.

Please carry on. Perhaps someone, somewhere will notice before I die. In the meantime, I'm no engineer, so I will just stick with "common sense" here so that I may hopefully persuade a few of the the sensible ones that these beliefs are wrong.

On a related note, check this out. I think that Monbiot speaks well, and that the chances that 9/11 Conspiracists will move onto real political action is nil. If it weren't against the rules, I would bet big money against it.
 
Who is accusing anybody of using politics to support an engineering theory? AFAIK, not even the JREF'ers.


Really? It seems to me a daily occurrence here, and at every truther site (that has daily traffic) I've ever seen.

But if you've never noticed, then I guess there's no reason for you to worry about it.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
There's no effort by 911 Truthers to, e.g., get engineering textbooks re-written. However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable.

IOW, the 911 Truther activists don't seem to have any technical goals, per se. They certainly do have political goals.
 
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It was debunkers on this forum that put the fake names there.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83483

And now they have the hypocrisy to complain that he didn't take them down.:rolleyes:

Yawn. Point is: AE911 accepts phony entries. Slow to correct. Puts AE911 policies, and by implication the validity of those 1000 AE's into question.

Too difficult to grasp. Twoof rather spins to lay blame on those evil debunkers.

Pointless to convince this vinniem character but I couldn't resest to point out the illogic.

Another entry to my IL.
 
There's no effort by 911 Truthers to, e.g., get engineering textbooks re-written. However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable.

IOW, the 911 Truther activists don't seem to have any technical goals, per se. They certainly do have political goals.

But your organization reveals it's collective technical ignorance every time Gage (and it seems to be only Gage) speaks in public. If and when you base your demand for a new investigation on these statements, people laugh at your demands.
 
However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable.

That's actually one step beyond what Myriad proposed; using politics (propagandising) to support a failed engineering theory (nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers' collapses) to support a political effort (holding people accountable for 9/11). And, in fact, for some of the truther theories to be accepted, every engineering textbook would have to be rewritten.

Dave
 
There's no effort by 911 Truthers to, e.g., get engineering textbooks re-written. However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable.

IOW, the 911 Truther activists don't seem to have any technical goals, per se. They certainly do have political goals.

That would be because the vast majority of them have no technical knowledge or the ability to do anything close to REAL research.

of course they are politically driven apologists who want there to be a big bad government conspiracy so they can explain why their lives suck.
 
There's no effort by 911 Truthers to, e.g., get engineering textbooks re-written. However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable.

IOW, the 911 Truther activists don't seem to have any technical goals, per se. They certainly do have political goals.


Generally speaking, I'd agree with this characterization. However, the application of political arguments to technical issues does occur as a side effect of the attempt to posit the necessary existence of nanothermite or other CD theories. For instance, the attempted blanket refutation of NIST's findings on the basis of NIST being a government agency, which is commonplace in truther argumentation.

This: "However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable" -- is exactly what I called out above as a recipe for failure. It fails not because its goals are objectionable, but because its claims are wrong. Any investigation positing nanothermite or CD as its rationale can only result in holding accountable the people who are responsible for using nanothermite or CD. Since no nanothermite or CD was used, no such people exist. And since it's easily established by anyone willing to make use of readily available (though not necessarily inexpensive) expertise that no nanothermite or CD was used, such an investigation cannot happen in the first place. It's self-defeating.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
@metamars

There's no effort by 911 Truthers to, e.g., get engineering textbooks re-written. However, there's considerable effort to propagandize nanothermite or other CD explanations of the towers collapses, ultimately with the goal of getting a much more serious investigation into 911 that actually holds people accountable.
Sorry, but I have to call B.S. on this "goal." I see 3 options:

  1. Ask the government for permission for non-governmental investigation of the government. Presumably with supoena power. In the real world, this means that a high school physics teacher, some lefties and actor Ed Asner will be given power to subpoena Norm Mineta and Dick Cheney. Good luck with that.
  2. Ask the government to investigate themselves. Again, 8 years after the fact and with ZERO public clamor for them to do so. Sure, politicians are just hankering for a reason to re-hash the biggest national security cock-up in 50 years. Not gonna happen.
  3. Do what every competent NGO advocacy group does. Act independently. If 1000 highly-compensated architects and engineers pool resources, buy advertising, investigate, build and test models, they have a chance to prove the rest of the world's engineers wrong. Or, at least get their attention. Use model of Amnesty International or PETA. Given the slackers who believe this tripe and the ZERO accomplishments of this impotent movement, this won't happen either.

Of course, there is always the fourth path - see my George Monbiot link above. Impotently rail against the man, which is a displacement activity for doing the real heavy lifting required to effect change in the real world.
 
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To sum up Gage's "plans" for 2010:

- Hold a press conference and masturbate Gage's ego
- Take part of a truther conference to preach to the choir in Philly
- Debate (hopefully) a physicist in Denver
- Speak alongside DRG at yet another conference

Impressive...

One og the comments might be a stundie:
1,000 Architects and Engineers. What do the boys on the other side have? Something like 3, all of whom rely on the government for their paychecks. If this were a boxing match it would have to be stopped.

No wonder the money is till rolling in on Gage's travel account.
 

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