Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[ixolite]

To all,

Here is a link to an article in German by Alexander Kekule. He is an MD/PhD, and his work concerns DNA and viruses. As others have done, he points to the lack of blood as a deficiency in the evidence concerning the kitchen knife.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/kommentare/Amanda-Knox-DNA-Spur;art141,2970520

Chris

For the benefit of the non-german speakers I'll summarize the points of this opinion piece:

- DNA-fingerprints are foolproof, other DNA evidence is not, due to possible contamination/ transfer from other sources

- RG has a criminal record
- RG's sperm was found inside Meredith, his finger- and footprints in her blood
- AK was suspected, because she claimed to have seen a kongolese barowner at the scene, in the meanwhile she claims to not have been there and to only discovering the body the next morning
- finger- and footprints of AK and RS are no proof, as both of them went in and out of the appartment frequently
- the staged brake in could have been done by RG
- the DNA on the bra clasp could be from a dander RS lost a few days prior
- the DNA on the knife could have been transferred by AK via her hands, who used the knife to cook, as she shared the appartment with the victim; this would be more evidence, if blood would have been found additionally


Well, from what I have read so far, I'd say this article is pretty much full of ****.


Btw, silent reader here, thank you guys for all the work you are putting into this thread. It is very informative.

 

[odeed]

Apologies if this has been answered or mentioned in the 50 pages before, I have been trying to follow the thread but:

1) How many times had Sollecito visited the apartment before the murder?

2) Who were Kercher and Knox flatmates, how long had they been living together and often were they there?

3) Was there any evidence (DNA or fingerprints) of the flatmates found in the victim room or on the victim?

 

[Dan O.]

The basics without the hype are best found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher .

Raffaele had been going with Amanda for about 2 weeks. I don't think we know exactly how often he came to the apartment but he was there for lunch preceding the murder before he and Amanda went back to his flat.

Amanda and Meredith were both there for about 2 months since the beginning of the school term. The other two girls, Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti had been there for considerably longer.

I am not aware of any evidence of the other two flatmates being found anywhere in the cottage. There obviously should be but since they both had pretty solid alibis such evidence probably would not have been reported.

 

[Alt+F4]

Raffaele had been going with Amanda for about 2 weeks.

I thought they had only known each other for less than a week, meeting on October 25th.

 

[Fengirl]

Btw, silent reader here, thank you guys for all the work you are putting into this thread. It is very informative.

Same here. I've followed the thread from the outset and have learned loads. Big thanks to Fiona, Fulcanelli and many others for your contribution to my education on this case.

 

[Prometheus]

Same here. I've followed the thread from the outset and have learned loads. Big thanks to Fiona, Fulcanelli and many others for your contribution to my education on this case.

Ditto.

 

[odeed]

The basics without the hype are best found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher .

Raffaele had been going with Amanda for about 2 weeks. I don't think we know exactly how often he came to the apartment but he was there for lunch preceding the murder before he and Amanda went back to his flat.

Amanda and Meredith were both there for about 2 months since the beginning of the school term. The other two girls, Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti had been there for considerably longer.

I am not aware of any evidence of the other two flatmates being found anywhere in the cottage. There obviously should be but since they both had pretty solid alibis such evidence probably would not have been reported.

Thanks, I was just thinking how unlucky (or coincidental) Sollecito was to have both his DNA on the bra clapse in Kercher's room, and also have in his possession a suspected murder weapon with both Knox and Kercher DNA on it.

I would of thought that there was a greater chance of finding the flatmates DNA rather than Sollecito's on the bra, if the argument is that the bra was contaminated while laying at the crime scene. The knife I can almost dismiss as a coincidence, but the Police must of had other evidence as they arrested Knox and Sollecito before they had the DNA results if the timeline I read was correct.

 

[Jungle Jim]

The basics without the hype are best found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher .

Raffaele had been going with Amanda for about 2 weeks. I don't think we know exactly how often he came to the apartment but he was there for lunch preceding the murder before he and Amanda went back to his flat.

You'd think that it would have been conclusively established how long RS & AK had been together. I have seen various reports mentioning one week to two weeks before the murder. Here is what I have found (I admit this may be incomplete):

RS's STATEMENT TO POLICE 5th NOV 2007: "I have known Amanda for two weeks. From the night that I met her she started sleeping at my house." [Oct. 25 would have been 11 days prior]

AMANDA KNOX TRIAL TESTIMONY, FRIDAY, JUNE 12, 2009.

GM - Giuliano Mignini = prosecutor: All right, Miss Knox, can you tell us about when you first met Raffaele Sollecito?

AK: It was at a concert at the Universita per Stranieri, I think it was on Oct 25.

GM: October 25?

AK: So I've understood [odd remark: meaning "so I've been told?"]

GM: So it was just about a week before the facts, more or less…

At no time during the AKs testimony did the defense attorneys challenge the Oct. 25th date, nor did the prosecution attempt to confirm it.

It would seem that neither the prosecution nor the defense was particularly interested in establishing the date that they met. I would assume interviews with AK's other two roommates would be able to narrow down the date. Anyone have any additional info?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

You'd think that it would have been conclusively established how long RS & AK had been together. I have seen various reports mentioning one week to two weeks before the murder. Here is what I have found (I admit this may be incomplete):

RS's STATEMENT TO POLICE 5th NOV 2007: "I have known Amanda for two weeks. From the night that I met her she started sleeping at my house." [Oct. 25 would have been 11 days prior]

AMANDA KNOX TRIAL TESTIMONY, FRIDAY, JUNE 12, 2009.

GM - Giuliano Mignini = prosecutor: All right, Miss Knox, can you tell us about when you first met Raffaele Sollecito?

AK: It was at a concert at the Universita per Stranieri, I think it was on Oct 25.

GM: October 25?

AK: So I've understood [odd remark: meaning "so I've been told?"]

GM: So it was just about a week before the facts, more or less…

At no time during the AKs testimony did the defense attorneys challenge the Oct. 25th date, nor did the prosecution attempt to confirm it.

It would seem that neither the prosecution nor the defense was particularly interested in establishing the date that they met. I would assume interviews with AK's other two roommates would be able to narrow down the date. Anyone have any additional info?

To be honest, though, how many of us when asked about the length of our relationship have it down to the day?

My gf and I started dating in early Aug 2 years ago...and, yet, when asked...I'm likely to just say "1 1/2 years" even though I know it's actually 1 year, 5 months, and 5 (or 6) days since our first date...

Generally, when we state a time frame of "week"or "month", we mean "roughly a week" or "roughly a month". I'd categorize 11 days as both "roughly a week" and "roughly two weeks" (interestingly, 11 days is almost a perfect split between the two).


ETA: Regardless, 1 or 2 weeks is pretty short and I think has little, to no, bearing on the results of the case. Whether they'd been seeing each other for 7 days, 11 days, or 14 days...their relationship readily fits into the same "new acquaintance" category.

 

[stilicho]

You'd think that it would have been conclusively established how long RS & AK had been together. I have seen various reports mentioning one week to two weeks before the murder. Here is what I have found (I admit this may be incomplete):

RS's STATEMENT TO POLICE 5th NOV 2007: "I have known Amanda for two weeks. From the night that I met her she started sleeping at my house." [Oct. 25 would have been 11 days prior]

AMANDA KNOX TRIAL TESTIMONY, FRIDAY, JUNE 12, 2009.

GM - Giuliano Mignini = prosecutor: All right, Miss Knox, can you tell us about when you first met Raffaele Sollecito?

AK: It was at a concert at the Universita per Stranieri, I think it was on Oct 25.

GM: October 25?

AK: So I've understood [odd remark: meaning "so I've been told?"]

GM: So it was just about a week before the facts, more or less…

At no time during the AKs testimony did the defense attorneys challenge the Oct. 25th date, nor did the prosecution attempt to confirm it.

It would seem that neither the prosecution nor the defense was particularly interested in establishing the date that they met. I would assume interviews with AK's other two roommates would be able to narrow down the date. Anyone have any additional info?

There have been several attempts to narrow down the exact moment at which RS and AK met. There were early contributors to PMF (one was a foreigner studying in Perugia) who had been at the same concert they were said to have met one another.

The reason it's not fully established is because that wasn't as vital to the prosecution case as the understanding that AK worked very quickly within social structures. Part of the defence case (and that of Mignini's and Micheli's detractors) has typically been that AK could not have forged strong enough bonds to be a catalyst for murder.

Some detractors argue that her partying reputation at UW and the tryst on the train are unimportant, too, but they were each introduced by the prosecution not to sully AK's reputation but to establish that she did act impulsively on other occasions and could include near strangers in those acts. This aspect of her behaviour is not deviance, IMHO, because I sure knew people with that type of personality in university--as well as before and after.

Some people also argue that AK must have, therefore, led a "double life" because of the way her family supports her. I don't have all the evidence to argue with that but I've known individuals whose families absolutely knew about this "double life" but either ignored or repressed it.

I get the idea, sometimes, that we so-called rational people lead sheltered lives where we aren't exposed to the AK's of the world and therefore have a tough time understanding them. I have and I figure a few others here have too.

Maybe we should get out more!

 

[Fiona]

I think that both Knox and Sollecito have stated that they met a a classical music concert at the university. In the first reference I can find from Sollecito he said it was on the 18th october: but later he said it was on the 25th. Knox also states it was on the 25th, in the testimony linked above. I note the peculiar wording. What I suspect is that they did meet at a concert and it probably was on the 25th: but given that Knox had not been in the country long: that both were students: and they seem to have spent a lot of the time together after they met without much routine (not that unusual if you are young; smoking dope; and newly in a relationship) they were not sure of the date. I do not find that implausible. Nor do I think it would be odd for their family or legal team to check the date and tell them when it was.

As Stilicho says, nothing much hangs on the date: the relationship was short whichever date is correct. But they seem to have been much together after they met (Sollecito says in his prison diary that Knox slept at his house/with him (again uncertainties of translation and memory, sorry) from the night they met), and even after the murder they were just about inseparable.

 

[stilicho]

Apologies if this has been answered or mentioned in the 50 pages before, I have been trying to follow the thread but:

There's a good summary of each of the main players' accounts here: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewforum.php?f=8. It's a collection of screenshots, pdf's, videos, and other documentation under an "In Their Own Words" segment.

1) How many times had Sollecito visited the apartment before the murder?

RS himself suggests in his statements that he'd been over there a few times.

2) Who were Kercher and Knox flatmates, how long had they been living together and often were they there?

That's not entirely clear either. AK first mentions Filomena (Molly) here: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=5068#p5068. That's the 02 SEP 2007 entry.

3) Was there any evidence (DNA or fingerprints) of the flatmates found in the victim room or on the victim?

As Dan O said, none was reported (or none that I have found).

 

[Dan O.]

Here is the key evidence that the judge listed in justifying the arrest of Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick: http://perugiamurderfile.org/download/file.php?id=57

1. Raffaele was known to have been in Meredith's room because the investigation uncovered a set of 3 footprints under the duvet covering Meredith's body that matched shoes found at Raffaele's flat.

2. Police confiscated a folding knife from Raffaele that the medical examiner identified as being compatible with the fatal wounds.

3. Amanda sent a text message to Patrick saying "See you later" which obviously implied a planned rendezvous.

4. Only Amanda has a key to the front door of the cottage so there is no way for an intruder to have entered without Amanda's help.

5. Raffaele lied when he told the postal police he had just phoned the police, knowing that the postal police would not be able to verify his statement.

In a statement to the press after the arrests the police declared "case closed".

 

[Fiona]

What is your point, Dan_O?

 

[Fulcanelli]

I think that both Knox and Sollecito have stated that they met a a classical music concert at the university. In the first reference I can find from Sollecito he said it was on the 18th october: but later he said it was on the 25th. Knox also states it was on the 25th, in the testimony linked above. I note the peculiar wording. What I suspect is that they did meet at a concert and it probably was on the 25th: but given that Knox had not been in the country long: that both were students: and they seem to have spent a lot of the time together after they met without much routine (not that unusual if you are young; smoking dope; and newly in a relationship) they were not sure of the date. I do not find that implausible. Nor do I think it would be odd for their family or legal team to check the date and tell them when it was.

As Stilicho says, nothing much hangs on the date: the relationship was short whichever date is correct. But they seem to have been much together after they met (Sollecito says in his prison diary that Knox slept at his house/with him (again uncertainties of translation and memory, sorry) from the night they met), and even after the murder they were just about inseparable.

This is a good point. There certainly has been confusion about the date as the date has often changed. I take the defence's date given with a pinch of salt since it's in their interests to offer a date that makes their relationship appear to have been as short of possible and thereby make it appear less likely they would have committed such a heinous crime together. So, I tend to follow the line that maybe it was one week, maybe it was two weeks, but we can't really be sure.

I would also add that it isn't the duration of a relationship that is of import in this case, but rather its intensity and the fact that it was grounded on lust rather then love. They spent all day every day and night together from the moment they met. That's a lot of time to get to know each other, pry secrets and fantasies from each other, exchange ideas. When combined with the hedonism of both being away from home and the mix of their rather strange characters together and throwing Rudy into the mix I don't see it as too unlikely that a collision course with Meredith may have been set, a course with 'something' that snowballed into something far more tragic. It's all about the right ingredients being thrown into the pot at the right time. Throw one set of ingredients in a pot you get soup. Throw a different set in and you can get an explosion.

 

[Fulcanelli]

In a statement to the press after the arrests the police declared "case closed".

I don't think the judge listed that in her judgement Dan o. That's your own little addition to the list and rather dishonest to try and sneakily assign that to the judge.

And as we all know, it wasn't 'case closed' because the police and forensic investigation lasted almost 9 months.

 

[Fiona]

I do not see the list that you give Dan_O. Even with no Italian I can see that it mentions that Sollecito said Knox was not in the house with him from about 8:30; that he claimed to get a call from his dad at about 11. I can see that it mentions that Filomena talked about a sweatshirt. Your list of the reasons for upholding the arrest does not seem to be very complete. Do you have a translation of the whole document? And can you tell me why things discussed on it are omitted from the list? Can you say what page the list is, on cos I cannot see it in the form you give

And can you tell me what your point is?

 

[Dan O.]

You are welcome to realize what it would take to produce an english translation of this document, especially by someone such as yourself that does not know Italian. Let me know when you are ready to share the effort in finding the facts rather than posting snarky comments on an internet forum to impress friends.

 

[Alt+F4]

I would also add that it isn't the duration of a relationship that is of import in this case, but rather its intensity and the fact that it was grounded on lust rather then love. They spent all day every day and night together from the moment they met. That's a lot of time to get to know each other, pry secrets and fantasies from each other, exchange ideas. When combined with the hedonism of both being away from home and the mix of their rather strange characters together and throwing Rudy into the mix I don't see it as too unlikely that a collision course with Meredith may have been set, a course with 'something' that snowballed into something far more tragic. It's all about the right ingredients being thrown into the pot at the right time. Throw one set of ingredients in a pot you get soup. Throw a different set in and you can get an explosion.

Didn't either of them have to work or go to school in the time period October 25th - November 1? I doubt they spent every minute together. I believe there was no evidence of any phone calls between these two and RG, so was their encounter with him planned in advance or did they just run into him by coincidence?

 

[Fiona]

You are welcome to realize what it would take to produce an english translation of this document, especially by someone such as yourself that does not know Italian. Let me know when you are ready to share the effort in finding the facts rather than posting snarky comments on an internet forum to impress friends.

I have made considerable efforts to find facts in this case and as you say it is not easy: there is a lot of information and a lot of misinformation out there, quite apart from the difficulties of translation.

But I notice you do not even point me to the list you have translated: and I cannot see it.

More importantly though, what facts do you feel it important to establish by translating this document? This is the required prima facie case which has to be presented to a judge to allow suspects to be held in custody beyond the initial 48 hours. We have to present reasons for remand in custody in this country too (though only once so far as I am aware). They are prepared at the beginning of an investigation and the picture often changes as information accretes (as it did in this case, leading to the release of Lumumba).

The case presented at Guede's trial was not based on this document: the case presented against Knox and Sollecito was not either.

I am prepared to put effort into things which are worthwhile: but I do not see this is. Why do you think it is?