Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[piktor]

The thong report

PERUGIA (22 November) - Two days after the death of Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito did not appear to be too worried, because they spend their afternoons to exchange effusions in a shop and buy lingerie 'for sex'. The fact is clear from the testimony of a dealer in Perugia that he heard in his shop a conversation between two young and then went to report it to investigators. Amanda and Raffaele have already been heard by the police once, with the others who lived in the house on Via della Pergola. The two lovers go into a clothing store for young people in the center of Perugia, they look a bit 'around, rummage through the shelves'. The dealer said he heard her laughing and talking, in English only. The two did not go unnoticed. . "They stayed half an hour - says the shopkeeper - seemed very relaxed, they embraced and kissed each other constantly. This is nothing exhibitionist. At one point the two are approaching the cash register, where there are thongs. Amanda and Raffaele watch them, then the young American takes two. "Put them on at home - he tells the young science student in English - and we do sex." The American laughs and pay. Then leave the store.- Il Messaggero

http://translate.google.com/transla...&sez=HOME_INITALIA&npl=&desc_sez=&sl=it&tl=en

 

[Chris_Halkides]

New thread

Hi Chris:


It's also clear to me that this thread is veering far away from the "Social Issues and Current Events" section and well into the "Science and Technology" section at the JREF. Almost all the discussion over the past ten or so pages has focused on the DNA evidence.

We should be able to agree that the defence, on appeal, is going to have to do a lot more than simply cast aspersions on the DNA evidence. Maybe the DNA discussion should be started on a separate thread in "Science and Technology" where a broader discussion might take place that evaluates the techniques employed by various agencies in different jurisdictions. Think about it like this. The Perugia murder case didn't hinge on DNA evidence but other equally high profile cases have and maybe there are broader implications.

I agree that a new thread is appropriate, especially if it includes other forensic evidence.

Chris

 

[Chris_Halkides]

further questions

So I will take a leaf out of your book. I will not pursue anything you dredge up unless it suits me, until you answer some of the many questions you have avoided so far.

If you do that then perhaps we will have a basis for discussion: but we do not have one now

Do you have some specific unaswered questions in mind?

Chris

 

[Chris_Halkides]

That dog won't hunt

Were halides1 to abandon his abuse of this particular deceased equine he might be less able to evade recognition of the fact that his voluminous contributions are utterly meaningless, since the entire question of the accuracy of the knife DNA has been rendered moot by the defendant's own words.

My previous posts have explained why I do not accept your line of reasoning. However, even if I did, they would only apply to the knife and not to the clasp, and I have treated both at roughly equal length.

Chris

 

[stilicho]

The tabloids tell us....

I want to get back to some of your points about DNA contamination and I hope you will help me since it appears you have some insights that I don't.

I used my own Google-Fu to look at examples of DNA contamination and I was frankly astonished at some them. There were deliberate false positives, false evidence that exonerated a rapist, and an example where the swabs had been contaminated during production and erroneously led investigators to believe there was a serial rapist loose.

The one thing that I didn't find, though, was something similar to what I think you've alleged to have happened in the Perugia murder case. I believe that you have not challenged the DNA supporting evidence on the murder weapon found in Sollecito's apartment but only the DNA evidence supporting his presence in the locked room containing Meredith's body. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Do you also have examples where the suspect's DNA was found with
others' and entered as evidence at a court trial? I would think that a false positive or a faked result would omit any mention of others. The examples I found didn't mention anything like that.

 

[stilicho]

Most psychologists would see this as pure woo.

I agree completely about reactions to tragedy.

Even though you didn't supply any links!

What isn't woo, though, is supplying alibis that don't mesh with reality. Neither is knowing more about the scene of a crime than the investigators. Please remember that it was these things (and more!) that convicted them and not their boorish behaviour.

 

[Matthew Best]

Well fortunately we don't need a porn film from someones 'head', it's on CCTV...it's all laid on!

Unfortunately I haven't seen the CCTV footage, whereas you obviously have, so you have me at a disadvantage. Can you point me towards it, or explain in detail what it actually shows?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Unfortunately I haven't seen the CCTV footage, whereas you obviously have, so you have me at a disadvantage. Can you point me towards it, or explain in detail what it actually shows?

I gave a link earlier in the thread to Barbie Nadeau's article that has stills from it.

 

[quadraginta]

My previous posts have explained why I do not accept your line of reasoning. However, even if I did, they would only apply to the knife and not to the clasp, and I have treated both at roughly equal length.

Chris

If, as you claim, you have addressed the issue of Sollecito himself bearing witness to the presence of Meredith's DNA on the knife then you have not succeeded in doing so in a manner which is very clear, except perhaps to yourself. Maybe you would like to sum it up in a way that is not obfuscated with technobabble legerdemain. His own admission that there was a cause for the presence of her DNA on the knife, however in dispute that explanation may be, is not affected in any way by lab technique, collection procedure, or interpretation of graphs.

The post which I responded to was at the end of a chain of discussion about the knife.

The. Knife.

You have certainly gone on about both at great length, at times even seeming to conflate the various potential areas of question concerning the two separate issues, but I was not responding to a line of discussion about the clasp. It was about the knife.

Such misdirection on your part does not reflect well upon the sincerity of your position. It calls your objectivity into question.

 

[piktor]

One night, several stories

I agree completely about reactions to tragedy.

What isn't woo, though, is supplying alibis that don't mesh with reality.

Please remember that it was these things (and more!) that convicted them and not their boorish behaviour.

Police - Where were you that night?

Knox - ''I was at Sollecito's''

Sollecito - ''I was at home''

End of story, right?

All the other housemates at Pergola 7 gave a credible alibi and were let go.

Something important here is lack of evidence the prosecution or the police conspired to railroad the three accused. This has been an open process, though not perfect, credible.

Maybe the appeals court will determine that as presented, the prosecution case is not strong enough and the accused do not deserve to be in jail with the evidence here.

 

[stilicho]

Patrick Lumumba's lawyer , Carlo Pacelli, said, in court:
.
“'Who is the real Amanda Knox? Is it the one we see before us here, all angelic? Or is she really a she-devil focused on sex, drugs and alcohol, living life on the edge?”

I thought I'd put together a few of the media links that focused primarily on the behaviour of the two convicted killers. Before you click them, notice that the "she-devil" portrayal was not by the prosecutors but by the lawyer for the man Amanda Knox accused and sent to prison for two weeks while she knew he was innocent:

General Overview:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5034306.ece
Manga Influence:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...ed_Meredith_Kercher_Frustrates_Animation_Fans
Knife Collection:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/7.html
Serial Killer Poster on Wall:
Only secondary sources. Not identified.
Lingerie Store:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pping-sexy-lingerie-day-Merediths-murder.html
Early News Story Containing Some Inaccuracies:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-die-refusing-extreme-sexual-experiences.html
Eccentric Behaviour Noted In Court Statements:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...nd-Raffaele-Sollecito/Article/200905415291840

It's practically ridiculous to say that the prosecution rested its case on any of these points. Also, it's easy to see that the behaviour and habits of both RS and AK placed them each under suspicion. Furthermore, the evening of AK's false accusations against Lumumba, the police had originally summoned RS in for questioning and she merely chose to accompany him.

Does anyone have a link to where the prosecution called AK a "she-devil"?

 

[piktor]

Diavolina

Does anyone have a link to where the prosecution called AK a "she-devil"?

"Is Amanda Knox the angelic [person] we see here?" said Mr Pacelli, turning to point fiercely at Knox. "Or is she a diabolical she-devil, an explosive concentrate of sex, drugs and alcohol? She is both. But the latter is the Amanda we saw on November 1, 2007." This is the date that Miss Kercher was murdered."

Love it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-shedevil-by-murder-trial-lawyer-1829882.html

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

"Is Amanda Knox the angelic [person] we see here?" said Mr Pacelli, turning to point fiercely at Knox. "Or is she a diabolical she-devil, an explosive concentrate of sex, drugs and alcohol? She is both. But the latter is the Amanda we saw on November 1, 2007." This is the date that Miss Kercher was murdered."

Love it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-shedevil-by-murder-trial-lawyer-1829882.html

Just to be clear, that is NOT the prosecution you have quoted, it is the lawyer for Mr Lumumba who was falsely implicated in the murder by Knox.

 

[stilicho]

"Is Amanda Knox the angelic [person] we see here?" said Mr Pacelli, turning to point fiercely at Knox. "Or is she a diabolical she-devil, an explosive concentrate of sex, drugs and alcohol? She is both. But the latter is the Amanda we saw on November 1, 2007." This is the date that Miss Kercher was murdered."

Love it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-shedevil-by-murder-trial-lawyer-1829882.html

No, that's still Lumumba's lawyer calling her a she-devil. Where is the prosecution calling her this?

ETA Alert!! Oops, someone beat me to it!

 

[piktor]

Just to be clear, that is NOT the prosecution you have quoted, it is the lawyer for Mr Lumumba who was falsely implicated in the murder by Knox.

I did miss 'prosecution' and should have pointed out it was 'Pacelli', lawyer for Mr. Lumumba's defence.

 

[stilicho]

I did miss 'prosecution' and should have pointed out it was 'Pacelli', lawyer for Mr. Lumumba's defence.

Not a problem, piktor. I have been sobered by some of the inaccuracies in my own posts and part of what I've been trying to do lately is to distinguish among:

[1] Rumours and assertions
[2] Media reports from Perugia
[3] Evidence produced at the trial by the prosecution
[4] Evidence challenged or descriptions used by the defence teams or experts

It is really a daunting task and I am sure that one of the finer journalists (eg Vogt or Pisa) will eventually write a good book about it. The same thing is happening over at PMF largely due to the sudden increase in interest in the case since the verdicts.

 

[Matthew Best]

I gave a link earlier in the thread to Barbie Nadeau's article that has stills from it.

Oh, I apologise. I was under the impression from your posts that you had seen the video. From your words "it's on CCTV... it's all laid on" I mistakenly inferred something that you obviously did not mean to imply.

 

[piktor]

Fathomless search

It is really a daunting task

I don't know about you, stilicho, but as days pass, it seems more and more difficult to find information on a topic. Google turns up news links and not much more. 'Blogger search' also has been invaded by big media blog posts with shallow information. PMF and TJMK sites have a search system that I still cannot figure out.

 

[Jungle Jim]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/1.html

This is about the best summary I've seen about the case. It seems to indicate that Rudy, Amanda and Raffaele were in Meredith's apartment the night she was killed. It is not clear who did what and under what circumstances.

 

[lector]

(I am not yet allowed to post URLs.)

This is about the best summary I've seen about the case. It seems to indicate that Rudy, Amanda and Raffaele were in Meredith's apartment the night she was killed. It is not clear who did what and under what circumstances.

I see several details that, at the very least, contradict what I have read elsewhere in the first 3 pages alone. Example: Meredith smoked pot. It is implied that she & Amanda got high together, or at least shared a common interest in weed. Where does that detail come from? It may be accurate but it's completely new to me.