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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Fiona,

Do you have evidence that the order was followed? I respectfully submit that the onus is on you.

Chris
 
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And I disagree. There was no opposition to the request and the court ordered it. There is nothing to suggest that the defence complained it had not been complied with. The natural conclusion is that it was complied with. You are claiming it was not and so the ball is in your court.
 
Fiona,

Do you have evidence that the order was followed? I respectfully submit that the onus is on you.

Chris

Of course it was, that's why the court was adjourned until September in order to give them time to go over the new data. And surprise, surprise, there was nothing in the data that was of any help to Knox and Sollecito.
 
Knife and bra clasp not essential for conviction

''They (legal watchers) note that Italy has a “smart jury” system which is encouraged to take a very broad birds-eye view of the case. The multi-alibis testimony and the mobile-phone testimony and the eye-witness testimony and the various mixed-blood traces and the various bloody footprints are considered almost impossible to account for if the defendants are in fact not guilty. The DNA on the knife and the bra-clasp are not make-or-break issues in this case and never were.''

http://bit.ly/6EGFbc
 
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The judge, the DNA documents, the defense shoots blanks

Of course it was, that's why the court was adjourned until September in order to give them time to go over the new data. And surprise, surprise, there was nothing in the data that was of any help to Knox and Sollecito.


''But the presiding judge said defence consultants were present when the DNA tests were carried out by forensic experts.

He added that relevant documents had been made available a month-and-a-half ago, suggesting that defence teams had enough time to review the DNA findings.'' - BBC September 14, 2009

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8255235.stm
 
Of course it was, that's why the court was adjourned until September in order to give them time to go over the new data. And surprise, surprise, there was nothing in the data that was of any help to Knox and Sollecito.

Interesting. I thought the summer recess happened anyway. It was my understanding that the court said it should be disclosed by July 30th so that the defence would have it during the recess; because he wanted the arguments about that part of the evidence concluded by October if possible. It doesn't matter either way: just a detail

@Piktor: I do not think that is quite correct. It is my understanding that the defence had the right to be present as had the representatives for the victim: but I think that that latter took up that right and the defence did not for some reason. I may be wrong about that. I know that Mignini did say what you report but I think he was not accurate and was referring to the expert for the Kerchers
 
Okay. It's very surprising that there were no hairs or fibers collected that were from the attacker(s) and found on the victim's body or clothing. A 25 minute physical struggle should result in all sorts of material transferred to the victim.
What is your basis for being surprised, & for the claim that there should have been hair/fiber transfer?

This is one of the issues that drew me to the discussion boards on the case. I initially thought the same thing, but I've found no substantiation for that expectation.

I should qualify my earlier reference to MK's body apparently not having been cleaned. There are unequivocal descriptions of blood spatter on her chest, & no descriptions of the rest of her body, so I can really conclude only that her chest wasn't cleaned.
 
[quoye="Fiona"]Interesting. I thought the summer recess happened anyway. It was my understanding that the court said it should be disclosed by July 30th so that the defence would have it during the recess; because he wanted the arguments about that part of the evidence concluded by October if possible. It doesn't matter either way: just a detail[/quote]

Yes, my mistake, it was before the summer break.
 
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For those not familiar with DNA profiling I found the following article quite helpful. It is written by some of those who signed the open letter (with others), so one can safely assume it is not biased in favour of the prosecution in any way. I am not sure when it was written but it is not for the purposes of this case so far as I can see. Bear in mind that some of the authors have a product to sell and they are keen on removing the human element from interpretation of results. They push this product in the article in fact, at page 16. The purpose appears to be to help those who wish to challenge dna evidence to do so more effectively: and since that is the business they are in this is not as surprise (nor yet a criticism, I hasten to add)

This is the html version: there is a pdf version which includes the illustrations but for some reason it dies when I try to link it: but I think you can find it quite easily from the information here if you are interested

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...rane2.PDF+Lexigen+science+and+law&hl=en&gl=uk

Some things which caught my eye were these:

There are no generally accepted thresholds for how high peaks must be to qualify as a“true allele.” Applied Biosystems, Inc., which sells the most widely used system for STRtyping (the ABI Prism 310 Genetic Analyzer™ with the ProfilerPlus™ system) recom-mends a peak-height threshold of 150 RFU, saying that peaks below this level must beinterpreted with caution. However, many crime laboratories that use the ABI systemhave set lower thresholds (down to 40 RFU in some instances). And crime laboratories sometimes apply their standards in an inconsistent manner from case to case or even within a single case. Hence, a defendant may be convicted in one case based on “peaks”that would not be counted in another case, or by another lab. And in some cases there may be unreported peaks, just below the threshold, that would change the interpretation of the case if considered

It is interesting to note that the manufacturer recommends a peak height but says that peaks below that height must be treated "with caution". That does not support any contention that they have no value at all

Note also that the authors say in passing that some labs adopt lower standards (down to 40 RFU). So it does not seem that this is the unheard of scientific procedure we are told it is.

Although this part of the article is bewailing the inconsistency of standards between and within labs the actual argument is that in the case under consideration the true picture was obscured by setting the threshold too high.

Then there is this:

Whereas the original DNA tests required a fairlylarge amount (i.e. a blood stain the size of a dime) of biological material to get a result,current DNA tests are so sensitive that they can type the DNA found in samples contain-ing only a few cells. There is likely to be enough of your DNA on the magazine you arereading right now for your DNA profile to be determined by a crime lab

The paper goes on to discuss the problem of transfer using the same studies I linked earlier (coincidence? or perhaps there is not much else: I do not know). Ironically it happens that the defendant in one of the cases referred to was convicted on the basis of other evidence, and that is quite like this case: but that is not directly relevant, just an aside. The main reason it interested me was because the people who looked into the transfer possibility in that case (who happen also to be signatories to the open letter and who also have a commercial interest in promoting the need for independent experts) gave a " plausible explanation" for the presence of DNA where it was found. What that means is they did not just assert that transference could take place: they showed how it could take place in quite a precise way. Very far from what we see here. And note too that they were commissioned by the defence to do that.

Another very interesting statement is this one:

In our experience, the best experts for evaluating whether the lab’s finding are supportedby the underlying data are academic scientists in the fields of molecular biology, bio-chemistry, bio-informatics, molecular evolution, genetics (particularly human and popu-lation genetics), and related fields. It is not essential that the expert have had experience analyzing forensic samples.

Oh rly?

But then it is an advertising piece, despite appearances

Having the electronic data analyzed by a company like Forensic Bioinformatics Services(see Sidebar) can make it easier to work with an expert. The FBS analysis eliminates theneed for the expert to do several hours of tedious work that requires specialized software,making it possible for the expert to get to the heart of the matter more quickly. The FBS reports also highlight potential issues and problems that the attorney can use to get theinterest of an expert
 
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Fiona,

I only have time for one more lengthy post today. The nine scientists have seen some of the data, and they show an electropherogram in their petition. In comment 572 you wrote, “A retest is certainly desirable. But one clear and unambiguous result is one clear and unambiguous result.” With due respect, I think you are making an overstatement about the data, as I will try to explain.

I quote from the figure legend of the petition: “Figure 1. The low copy DNA electropherogram of the knife described above. Almost all peaks are below 75 RFUs, and most are below 50 RFUs.” This issue is also discussed in the main body of their petititon. It is important because the lower the number of RFUs (relative fluorescence units), the lower the signal-to-noise ratio. When this ratio gets lower and lower, it becomes more difficult to distinguish what is real from what is random (the noise).

This is where the number of steps of PCR becomes important; each step of PCR amplifies the amount of DNA by a factor of two. Stefanoni’s team did not do as many cycles as is typical of LCN analysis, therefore, a low S/N ratio is not surprising. I know that you do not trust this site (http://www.sciencespheres.com/2009/10/lcn-dna-profiling-part-ii-watch-where.html), but for others who might:

There was so little DNA present that the instrument indicated no DNA until Stefanoni overrode the machine limits. This amplification increase was not achieved by the PCR technique. Once the sample has been chopped up and subjected to electrophoresis, it is too late for that. The increase was performed by other methods, such as lowering the threshold level, or simply changing the display scale until the minute fluorescence peaks were visible.

Matthew provided a link (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-09-14/no-mistrial-for-knox/?cid=bsa:moreauthor2) which is consistent with (but does not demand) the notion that the S/N ratio on the knife was too low:

The key evidence that the prosecution withheld pertains to test results on a knife found in Sollecito’s apartment with Knox’s DNA on the handle. Forensic scientist Patrizia Stefanoni, who testified as a prosecution witness last spring, wrote “too low” in English on initial results, assumed to mean that the samples of Kercher’s DNA on the alleged murder weapon—along with Knox’s DNA—did not meet the normal standards. Writing “too low” in English suggests that she was copying a reading directly from the machine, while she was continuing to test the sample. The implication, according to the defense, is that Stefanoni then had to amplify the tiny sample found on the blade beyond the protocol to find a match to Kercher’s DNA. Why she did that, and who may have ordered her to do so, are troubling questions. The knife evidence has been heavily contested because the sample on the blade was so small it could not be double-tested and because Stefanoni completed the one and only test without defense experts in the laboratory.
The day was not a complete loss for the defense. Their forensic expert, Adriano Taglibracci, testified that the standard protocol in DNA examination requires double testing to prove a match and that Stefanoni made what Taglibracci called intentional errors to mislead the jury. “This sample was so small that there was not enough to double-test it,” he told the court. “There are contradictions between what was recorded in the lab report and the court testimony signed by the same person.”

One final, more general point. It seems to me that both those who accept and those who doubt the DNA evidence should agree that the .fsa files ought to be released, so as to allow independent analysis, as discussed upthread. To date I have not heard this call from those who accept the DNA evidence.

Chris

See, this is where the appeal to authority runs into issues.

While these 9 are authorities, we have:

a) found that 3 of them have a vested interest via FBS
b) found that none of them had access to all of the lab data at the time the letter was written (or at least, that's what some others are arguing...make up your minds please...)


This makes this a fallacious appeal. Just because these guys are authorities in bio-informatics does not mean they can just go off spouting whatever they want on the subject and it's to be believed.
 
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Some of her clothes were washed the following morning and were in the machine when the police arrived.

No. The clothes were washed the day before (while Kercher was still alive - she put them in the machine) and they were still in the machine the following day as she hadn't had time to take them out.
 
Ah thanks Matthhew_Best.

I knew she had done a washing the day before

I did not know that this was the same washing and the reason I did not realise is that I read that it was still warm when the Romanelli arrived just before 1 pm on the 2nd. I did not know that had been overturned. Was that in the testimony or what?
 
Where's the DNA beef?

See, this is where the appeal to authority runs into issues.

Just because these guys are authorities in bio-informatics does not mean they can just go off spouting whatever they want on the subject and it's to be believed.


I would like to ask the most learned people commenting here, do you think the jury or the judges in Perugia are molecular-bio-informatic-allele-loving geeks that actually comprehend any of this mumbo jumbo strange factoids?

I'm a fairly inquiring mind and for me, all this DNA evidence is as difficult to decypher as Egyptian hieroglyphs. Maybe the judges are familiar with the basics but the lay jurors...

In this particular case neither the prosecution nor the defense offered unassailable DNA proof. It is all the other evidence added together that convicted the accused.
 
No. The clothes were washed the day before (while Kercher was still alive - she put them in the machine) and they were still in the machine the following day as she hadn't had time to take them out.

The Postal Police said the washing machine was running when they entered; Filomena, who arrived a little later, said that the washing machine was still warm and contained Meredith’s clothes.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

Also:
12.35 Postal police arrive at house, and find AK and RS outside (but within the gate), who said they were waiting for the Carabinieri; they notice that the washing machine is active.
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3&p=5&hilit=washing+machine#p5
 
I would like to ask the most learned people commenting here, do you think the jury or the judges in Perugia are molecular-bio-informatic-allele-loving geeks that actually comprehend any of this mumbo jumbo strange factoids?

I'm a fairly inquiring mind and for me, all this DNA evidence is as difficult to decypher as Egyptian hieroglyphs. Maybe the judges are familiar with the basics but the lay jurors...

In this particular case neither the prosecution nor the defense offered unassailable DNA proof. It is all the other evidence added together that convicted the accused.

I agree. The DNA is relatively minor as has already been explained. The knife came into contact with Kercher by Sollecito's own admission. The bra strap does nothing more than place Sollecito in the apartment at the time of the murder - which we have eye-witnesses for.

At this point, it's become a point of contention mainly, at least for me, over how this information is being attacked.

The side without the labwork and with a vested interest claims that the labwork is shoddy and that relying on the 9 (only 9?) authorities on bio-informatics is not a fallacious appeal to authority. That same side argues that relying on the Prosecution expert who worked in the lab and provided the final analysis is a fallacious appeal to authority.

Then we get into how the DNA arrived on the bra clasp. Prosecution (and the Forensics expert) claim that it could only have occurred if Sollecito had, at some point, rough contact with the clasp. Those supporting the Defense claim that the clasp was contaminated, but haven't been able to explain how there was enough DNA to thoroughly contaminate the clasp and yet not contaminate anything else in the apartment in even the slightest amount (cig butt notwithstanding as it was his cig, so it's not cross-contamination).

Amazingly, this seems to be the crux of those supporting the Defense's argument, and regardless of whether that has any effect on the outcome (it doesn't, too many other bricks in the wall) they argue (fallaciously/dishonestly) that the DNA being collected improperly or tested improperly will somehow exonerate Knox and Sollecito.
 
Did K/S make any testimony as to why the washer was running. This makes it looks like a cleanup but there could be a natural explanation. For example sometimes when laundry gets left in the washer overnight without being dried you would run the washer again to make sure the clothes don't get funky. So maybe Amanda re-started the wash so she could use the washer. I don't believe this btw, it's just that I want to know how they try and explain it.
 
I agree. The DNA is relatively minor as has already been explained. The knife came into contact with Kercher by Sollecito's own admission.

I see this a lot on TV crime shows where DNA is always associated with a crime. But is there actually science behind the theory that there are no innocent explanations for the presence of DNA?
 
I see this a lot on TV crime shows where DNA is always associated with a crime. But is there actually science behind the theory that there are no innocent explanations for the presence of DNA?


Hard to say. Is that a theory you're proposing? Do you have any science to back it up?

It doesn't seem to be anyone else's theory, here.

Are you basing a lot of your contributions here on TV crime shows?
 
On the contrary: there are innocent explanations for the presence of DNA: that is what the whole contamination debate is about. But there has to be a route
 
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