Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[plumjam]

Hmmm...

A broken window...glass on bestrewn clothes... a knife in a shoe box... warm clean garments... and a turd in the water closet....

*places monocle in eye, walks to open french windows, slaps leather gloves in hand, and breathes deeply of the moist evening air*

 

[Brainster]

This reported "prank" moves us a bit closer to a motive:

Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke.

'Joh' was contacted by PMF Administrator Skeptical Bystander over a year ago and he confirmed the incident. The story came from a friend of his who lived in the student house in Seattle with Amanda Knox, the same student house incidentally where the infamous 'rock throwing party' for which Knox was fined took place. However, neither Joh or his friend wanted to come forward to the authorities with their story or go on official record, so it is a case of make of it what you will.

There is also a report that she wrote a fiction story about a rape.

 

[Fiona]

Further to the coercive interrogation

In the context of Knox's appeal to the Supreme Court for release (1/4/09), this exchange is reported at PMF

Amanda
They used the statements I made at 1.45 am on November 6 when I didn't not have the presence of an attorney to defend me.
I was questioned again at 5.45 am and gave "spontaneous statements,...

The 1.45 time is in line with the evidence given by the senior police officer, Faracca, in her testimony: that is when she said she stopped the interview and alerted the judicial authorities.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Further to the coercive interrogation

In the context of Knox's appeal to the Supreme Court for release (1/4/09), this exchange is reported at PMF



The 1.45 time is in line with the evidence given by the senior police officer, Faracca, in her testimony: that is when she said she stopped the interview and alerted the judicial authorities.

They used the statements I made at 1.45 am on November 6 when I didn't not have the presence of an attorney to defend me. I was questioned again at 5.45 am and gave "spontaneous statements,...

The sleep deprivation is torture chorus begins in 3, 2, 1 ...
(Or was she allowed to catch a few winks before the next interview/questioning/interrogation/thumbscrew party?)


DR

 

[Whiplash]

I'm not.

The OP implied that turning a cartwheel in the police station after being arrested for murder is considered perfectly normal behavior in the US. And yet, she won't tell us where in the US it is considered normal. Because I know it isn't anywhere close to where I live.

Are you going to be able to get past this problem any time soon? This thread is brimming with good information about the whole case. It's getting a bit tarnished by this constant assault and childish insistence on belaboring that point to death. We get it already. She said something dumb. Can you move on?

 

[GlennB]

The sleep deprivation is torture chorus begins in 3, 2, 1 ...
(Or was she allowed to catch a few winks before the next interview/questioning/interrogation/thumbscrew party?)


DR

Interesting use of the 'poisoning the well' technique there, DR.

I'd probably class myself as 'mightily pissed off and dog-tired' at being questioned at 01:45 and then again at 05:45. Assuming the story is true, of course.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'd probably class myself as 'mightily pissed off and dog-tired' at being questioned at 01:45 and then again at 05:45. Assuming the story is true, of course.

Me as well.

What does that have to do with my prediction that this is attempted to be made a supporting argument for "coercive" questioning?

Since I don't know if she was allowed to catch a few winks between sessions, it would be interesting to know how that worked out.

On behalf of the police, anywhere, time is of the essence in getting info in many cases. They may have had a sense of urgency in pursuing as much info as they could get given that a murder had just taken place. Likely a contributing factor to her being kept at the station, rather than released, as things developed.

DR

 

[Kestrel]

There is also a report that she wrote a fiction story about a rape.

The tabloids consider something like that to be evidence, but I don't understand how any skeptic could consider it valid.

Should we be rounding up all crime novel authors because they clearly are deranged killers?

 

[Darth Rotor]

The tabloids consider something like that to be evidence, but I don't understand how any skeptic could consider it valid.

Should we be rounding up all crime novel authors because they clearly are deranged killers?

One must admit that Diane Mott Davidson is a danger to society! (For values of society that = my waistline, given that her murder mysteries always have great recipes, which we try and devour ... )

 

[Fiona]

I have been trying to find Judge Micheli's report in English but the best I can do is a google translation via this website:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=3327#p3327 it is quite a disturbing read, there are descriptions of Meredith Kercher's injuries.

Agatha I have made two attempts to read this in full but I find it very hard to follow because the translation is poor. Have you been able to read it properly and if so did you understand the DNA stuff?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Are you going to be able to get past this problem any time soon? This thread is brimming with good information about the whole case. It's getting a bit tarnished by this constant assault and childish insistence on belaboring that point to death. We get it already. She said something dumb. Can you move on?

Get past the main subject of the tread? That seems odd.

 

[Agatha]

Agatha I have made two attempts to read this in full but I find it very hard to follow because the translation is poor. Have you been able to read it properly and if so did you understand the DNA stuff?

No, my Italian is fairly basic, and it's very hard to read in the translation. I have sent a link to an English friend of mine who lives in Latina (about 40 miles south of Rome) and asked her if she can help with it, but she's not a scientist and some of the language is quite technical.

There are translations of parts of the report on the TJMK site, I'm still working my way through those.

 

[Fiona]

Thanks Agatha; I have read the TJMK site: what I really want is whole docs, but I have no Italian at all

 

[GreyICE]

Me as well.

What does that have to do with my prediction that this is attempted to be made a supporting argument for "coercive" questioning?

I'd call your 'prediction' common sense. For instance, if this was a debate about police brutality, those timings would be the evidence that there were 37 specific taser discharges.

Seriously, best case is the tape stopped at 1:46 (1 minute statement), she fell asleep at 1:47, and they woke her up at 5:44 for her next statement, that's still 4 hours or less of sleep.

Given that we know that there were more time buffers than that, 2-3 hour catnaps are not enough to sustain most humans, especially in high stress situations.

Since I don't know if she was allowed to catch a few winks between sessions, it would be interesting to know how that worked out.

On behalf of the police, anywhere, time is of the essence in getting info in many cases. They may have had a sense of urgency in pursuing as much info as they could get given that a murder had just taken place. Likely a contributing factor to her being kept at the station, rather than released, as things developed.

DR

I don't know whats worse. Deliberately doing a coercive interrogation, or accidentally managing to do one because of complete incompetence.

If multiple officers were running in and out asking her questions and stopping her from sleeping while keeping her at the station for over a day, and they managed that unintentionally... wow.

 

[quadraginta]

There is also a report that she wrote a fiction story about a rape.

The tabloids consider something like that to be evidence, but I don't understand how any skeptic could consider it valid.

Should we be rounding up all crime novel authors because they clearly are deranged killers?

This is a good point. In more ways than one.

This sort of thing has been touted as evidence that Knox has been mistreated by the Italian judicial system, but I have found no suggestion that it comprised any part of the case made against her in court.

High profile cases are routinely turned into disgusting circuses by the media. The U.S cannot be found innocent of this in such cases that occur only within our borders.

For this to be an element of any sort of indictment against her conviction it is necessary to show that there was a demonstrable impact. Beyond xenophobic innuendo concerning the impartiality of the jury this has not been done. In fact, none of the most vehement protesters of Knox's conviction seem to be dwelling much on the fact that the very same jury also convicted the son of a wealthy Italian family on the same charges, using the same evidence, in the same trial. Nor do they seem to be dwelling much on the fact that the 'biased' Italian police and judiciary also chose to charge him exactly as they charged Knox, and try him at the same time, in the same proceedings.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'd call your 'prediction' common sense. For instance, if this was a debate about police brutality, those timings would be the evidence that there were 37 specific taser discharges.

Seriously, best case is the tape stopped at 1:46 (1 minute statement), she fell asleep at 1:47, and they woke her up at 5:44 for her next statement, that's still 4 hours or less of sleep.

Yes, but that is hardly coercive. I think we all know the difference between no sleep, and 2-4 hours sleep with an early rise. Annoying, but you can deal with it.

Given that we know that there were more time buffers than that, 2-3 hour catnaps are not enough to sustain most humans, especially in high stress situations.

This line of thought is practical, and would raise a question regarding the reliability/accuracy of her statements and responses.

I don't know whats worse. Deliberately doing a coercive interrogation, or accidentally managing to do one because of complete incompetence.

Your last two words do not fit the sentence, though IMO the realization that asking a somewhat bewildered interviewee questions risks poor answers that lead to bad leads. Most cops who do such things for a living seem to know this.

If multiple officers were running in and out asking her questions and stopping her from sleeping while keeping her at the station for over a day, and they managed that unintentionally... wow.

That would be a case of sleep deprivation with the potential to corrupt here statements/answers. Or, to get her to trip over a false story.

*why would I know this, I wonder?*

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

In fact, none of the most vehement protesters of Knox's conviction seem to be dwelling much on the fact that the very same jury also convicted the son of a wealthy Italian family on the same charges, using the same evidence, in the same trial. Nor do they seem to be dwelling much on the fact that the 'biased' Italian police and judiciary also chose to charge him exactly as they charged Knox, and try him at the same time, in the same proceedings.

QFT

We may be dealing with the old "virtue, and innocence, by reason of doing a cartwheel having a pair of tits" defense.

DR

 

[Micromegas]

In fact, none of the most vehement protesters of Knox's conviction seem to be dwelling much on the fact that the very same jury also convicted the son of a wealthy Italian family on the same charges, using the same evidence, in the same trial. Nor do they seem to be dwelling much on the fact that the 'biased' Italian police and judiciary also chose to charge him exactly as they charged Knox, and try him at the same time, in the same proceedings.

Good points.

And if the Italian police were unrestrained by any need to produce actual evidence, why wouldn't they have "found" DNA from Lumumba at the scene, since he's the one Knox implicated when she was first questioned? Why bother clearing his name, if evidence isn't an issue here?

And if the forensic investigation really were such a circus that samples were being contaminated left and right, why wouldn't the third roommate, Filomena, be in jail as well? Wouldn't the inept DNA collection have incriminated her as well?

-Mike

 

[Brainster]

The tabloids consider something like that to be evidence, but I don't understand how any skeptic could consider it valid.

Should we be rounding up all crime novel authors because they clearly are deranged killers?

Perhaps you missed the difference between your example and the subject case? Which is that Amanda Knox had a roommate who was sexually assaulted and murdered.

 

[Fiona]

I do not think that it is helpful to focus on anything like that Brainster: we have no base line against which to judge whether that is an unusual thing to do. You may think you know, but you really don't: no-one does. I have said before, I think that under the kind of scrutiny which this kind of investigation generates, most of us would be found to have said or written at least something which could be spun as sinister. It is a dangerous path to travel and it really tells us nothing at all of worth. Unlike the cartwheels, which can be demonstrated to be odd because people are in and out of police stations all the time so we can say for certain that is not how most people behave, such writings are normally private.