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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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One of the most worrying aspects of the case is the prosecutor, Mignini, whose theory of how the murder happened seemed unsupported even by the evidence he himself presented.

And then there's this:

Why? For years, Mignini has followed the dark satanic conspiracy theories of an Italian blogger named Gabriella Carlizzi who feels she knows what happened the night Meredith Kercher was murdered.

"They had decided that to re-enact one of the many rituals in literature that are performed during Halloween," she says.

Carlizzi posted her satanic ritual murder theory on her blog. Mignini later presented it as fact during Rudy Guede's trial.

"He used her as a very important witness in the Monster of Florence case and now it appears that he's using her as a source for the Amanda Knox case," says Preston. "Now, where does this woman get her evidence? She speaks to a deceased priest named Father Gabriele."

I don't know how true this is, but it sounds worrying.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009...29950_page4.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody
 
What of their whereabouts the night of the murder? Is it not correct that their alibi had been shown to be false by multiple witnesses?
 
You do realise, I hope, that the Perugia police have filed a defamation suit over the allegations of abuse levelled by the Knox family.

We can't know for sure because the Perugia police didn't make an audio recording of the interrogation as normally would have been done in the US.

Assuming I was beaten, threatened, deprived of amenities, and isolated from assistance, I would likely confess to any crime myself. The last thing I could ever contemplate is to create a fictional account and naming someone that I knew or worked for.

Here is a transcript of Knox's statement that she signed after her interrogation:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

Clearly she was being lied to by the police about the strength of their evidence and what Solecito was saying. Her mention of Patrice Lumumba is only to refer to statments she made the previous night. She said that her vision which included Lumumba seemed unreal like her dreams that she was at the house hearing screams. We just have the police's word to what degree she implicated Lumumba. Exactly what she said about Lumumba, how badly she implicated him, and how much she was coached to implicate others was not recorded.

The evidence of wrongdoing by the interrogators was enough that a higher court declared the jury was not supposed to consider Knox's statement in determing her guilt of murder, but, because of the vagaries of the Italian court system, the same jury was supposed to consider her statement in deciding whether Lumumba was defamed, and I don't see how they could not have also had her interrogation influence their murder verdict.

Anyway, that's not evidence Knox murdered Kercher and I don't think an allegation made under duress by the police would be successful grounds for winning a defamation lawsuit in the US.

I would have to dig for cites but people falsely accused and subjected to physical and mental abuse will almost always confess to doing the crime themselves rather than to implicate someone else. That's how people are. They accept responsibility, often, even when they know they are innocent.

Please find some cites. I would think that more people would implicate others to end the questioning and lessen their own punishment under duress.

The Salem witch trials are a historical case of young women who might have been hanged as witches themselves if they hadn't implicated others.

In the McCarthy era, people were successfully pressured to name names of alleged communists under threat of being punished by the HCUAA and losing their careers.

A more recent shameful case in the US is that of the West Memphis 3 ( wm3.org ) where a young man falsely implicated himself and two friends under a long harsh interrogation only snippets of which was recorded.

I thought that a standard tactic totalitarian regimes use is torture not only to extract confession but also implicate others.

I know that I heard an interview with an Iranian dissident who was harshly interrogated after the post-election protests and was asked both to confess to absurd crimes and to name other members of the pro-democracy movement.

Anecdotally, didn't KSM confess to additional crimes he couldn't possibly have committed after being abused?

Yes, and since recordings of his interrogation weren't made public, I'll bet he also named names.

I sure hope you sued after overcoming your shock.

The Streisand effect and lack of money and people willing to testify discourage me from doing so.


It certainly appears to. I don't have expertise on how much DNA is supposed to be conclusive. Ms Knox' defense team merely argued that it was too little. If that position was rejected then it was probably indefensible.

Which DNA evidence? Have you read any of the repeated posts about the inadequacy of the DNA evidence?

There was no DNA of Knox in the murder room even though she was supposed to be part of a brutal rape and murder and there was plenty of Guede's DNA in the room. How did she manage to leave no hair, saliva, skin flakes, or blood in the room? Do you believe she could have removed all her evidence without disturbing the DNA evidence of Guede?

The only evidence linking Solecito to the scene was a bit of DNA on Kercher's bra clasp which was left at the crime scene for 46 days of trampling by the police before being recovered and tested. Why was there no DNA of Solecito recovered from the murder room at the time of the original investigation of the scene?

Are you referring to the DNA on the alleged murder weapon? First of all defense experts showed the knife was inconsistent with the wounds on Kircher. The knife was in Solecito's apartment so supposedly Knox and Solecito took it back from the murder scene and put it in the kitchen drawer. Knox frequented the apartment so it's undestandable that her DNA was on the handle.

The knife tested negative for blood. The alleged bit of biological material on the tip of the knife that the prosecution claimed contained Kercher's DNA was so small that no independent lab could repeat the prosecution's test. You do realize the importance of repeatability in science in general and especially in forensics where someone freedom is at stake.

Why do you assume that the only reason a biased jury would reject independent experts' claims is that the claims are indefensible.

Skeptigirl has provided links to sites listing people wrongfully convicted in the US. Are you going to assume that all those cases were correctly decided in spite of evidence of prosecutorial misconduct, false testimony, and jury bias?
 
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Here are a couple of articles touching on cultural aspects of the case:

She-devil of family's nightmares or Amelie of Seattle: the two faces of Amanda Knox


Meredith Kercher murder: guilty verdicts put spotlight on Italian justice
Were the judges in the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito influenced by factors beyond the investigation?



Some of the cultural-divide aspects of this trial are mirrored in this thread by the flavor of idiotic posts such as this (addressing the OP writer):

And the prosecutors, police, jury and judge all say she's guilty.

Fancy that. To think that you might*** be wrong. :rolleyes:


***Are

Childish trust in authority can lead to all kinds of travesties and can enable prosecutors, police, jury and judge to close ranks simply to save face and to preserve their authority.

Here are the words of an Italian reporter (see second link, above):

"Sentencing to life imprisonment two young people, aged 22 and 25, would mean destroying their lives forever," ... "but letting them off would mean gainsaying not only the entire investigation, but also the judges who have reached decisions before them."



Does post #127 address where exactly in America turning cartwheels in a police station after being arrested for murder is considered "normal"?

Or does the humiliation continue?

I have found your behavior on this thread, The Central Scrutinizer, to be rather weird, not to say immature.

Do you realize that publically advertizing the pleasure you creepily gain from witnessing humiliation could one day get you put away for murder?

;)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As other posters have mentioned, I, too, could easily imagine doing the equivalent of cartwheels in such a stressful context. It may also be that Knox is mildly autistic. Her gauche social behavior suggests this.

That anyone believes that such a behavior is reason to suspect that someone is a murderer is mind-boggling.

However, her hosting a loud party has done it for me. She definitely dunnit! ;)
 
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The length of the interrogation by Perugia police is certainly disputed. I have seen it, in the sympathetic Seattle press, variously set at six, fourteen, and more than 24 hours. Which was it? I've noticed that her defenders nearly always set it as long as possible. Why?
See my previous post about the interrogation. I've heard conflicting reports about the length of the interrogation too. The shortest length I've heard is fourteen hours. It is clear from Knox's written statement that it was a minimum of overnight and long enough that she was sleep-deprived and confused. If the police had actually made an audio recording we'd know more.


We're certainly painting the Italian police as kind of a Keystone Kops crew who, finding the victim's roommate, beat her into providing Lumumba's name and then let him go after he spends two weeks in prison for lack of evidence that they apparently don't need to convict someone anyways. If they wanted to investigate, prosecute, convict and sentence someone carelessly, then why wouldn't they just take Ms Knox' allegations on their face? Why continue to see if the story about the broken window fits the evidence? Why worry about whether anything was stolen? Why pursue Guede after they already had one to three culprits in hand? (The list goes on and on.)

The physical part of the duress was being cupped on the head some according to Knox. The duress was mostly provided by sleep and food deprivation, accusation, lies about the strength of the evidence the police had, and emotional bludgeoning.

Read Knox's statement linked in my previous post. The police declared it a "partial confession". The implication of Lumumba was in a dream which she said seemed unreal like her vision that she was at the house at the time of the murder outside of Kercher's bedroom and heard screaming. Lumumba was released because he had an ironclad alibi. If he didn't have one the prosecutor probably would have charged him too.

They certainly went to elaborate lengths after the initial interrogation to disprove the "confession" they'd already extracted.

You've got it backward. The police went to elaborate lengths to confirm their interpretation of Knox's statements under interrogation. Every bit of evidence was interpreted as confirming Knox and Solecito's guilt. Just as everyone in this thread who is convinced of Knox guilt assumes, the police assumed that not only was the broken window evidence of a faked breakin, but that Knox faked the breakin.

Any inconsistency in Knox and Solecito's testimony was interpreted as deception rather than confusion. Knox's behavior and Myspace page was interpreted as showing that she was a cold she-devil.

The prosecution accepted testimony of witnesses who came forward months after the murder with stories they had made no mention of immediately after the murder. A store owner, who had been questioned by the police immediately after the murder and made no mention of having seen Knox and Solecito at that time, came forward months later and testified that he had seen the defendants together the morning after the murder. A homeless man who wasn't questioned until months later testified at trial that he saw the defendants together one night but couldn't even remember when. His initial claim of when he saw the defendants together was before Knox and Solecito had even met.

As suggested previously in this thread and in a linked NY Times column, the prosecutor, who had a previous record of doggedly pursuing outrageous allegations, had to save face and was determined to get a conviction of Knox and Solecito regardless of the lack of evidence.

Most importantly, you've got the burden of proof all wrong. The prosecution made the extraordinary claim that Knox and Solecito, who had only met a couple of weeks earlier, had tried to force Kercher into a sex game with them and Guede of whom Knox and Solecito had only a passing awareness.

The prosecution claims that Knox slashed Kercher's throat while Guede and Solecito held her down. The prosecution also expects us to believe that even though Guede's DNA was found in Kercher's room in abundance, it's not surprising that none of Knox's DNA was found in the murder room and that the only DNA from Solecito was on Kercher's bra clasp recovered from a contaminated scene 46 days later.

The prosecution also expects us to dismiss the more rational claim by the defense that Guede acted alone even though only Guede had a criminal record, only Guede had been previously arrested with a knife in his hand after a breakin, only Guede admitted to having actually been in Kercher's room the night of the murder, only Guede's DNA was found in the murder room and on Kercher's body, only Guede's bloody handprint was found in Kercher's room, and only Guede fled the country even though Knox's mother had asked her to come home after the murder.

There are far more holes in the prosecution's case then the defense's.

According to standard US judge's instructions, when two equally plausible explanations for item of evidence are presented to a jury, the jury is supposed to give preference to the explanation favoring the defendant.

Those convinced of Knox's guilt seem to be saying that we should prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Knox is innocent. That's bass-ackward.

It has been repeatedly shown that there is more than reasonable doubt that Knox and Solecito are guilty.
 
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Ok. It is clear that the top of skeptigirl's game is poisoning the well of anything that disagrees with her predetermined conclusion. It is clear that she believe that her sources are more objective than other sources, though I do not see that has been established. But let us look at what the other side say about those matters which she believes prove the case is a miscarriage of justice

1. The quality of the DNA evidence.

a.The knife.
The prosecution states that the knife found in Sollecito's home had traces of Knox's dna on the handle.That is not disputed and is explained by the fact that she regularly cooked in his apartment. Fair enough.

The prosecution states that a small trace of Kerchner's DNA was found on the knife. This was established by tests done in the lab and under the supervision of Dr Stefanoni, who is an internationally respected forensic scientist based in Rome. In July

Both Dr. Renato Biondo, the head of the DNA Unit of the scientific police, and the Kerchers’ own DNA expert, Professor Francesca Torricelli, provided independent confirmation that this forensic finding is accurate and reliable.

They did not dispute the DNA was on the knife: they did not dispute it was Kerchner's. Socellito, when told of the finding, said that the reason the DNA was there was because on one occasion, while Kerchber was cooking at his home, he accidentally pricked her with the knife. But Kerchner had never been to his flat so that was really not very helpful.

There are two parts to the defence case:

There was not a big enough sample to allow for a re-test. That is certainly a problem, but it is not enough to overturn the finding. Dr Stefanano is an internationally respected forensic scientist who led the forensic team.She is based in Rome. She is experienced and so is her team, who also came from Rome. There is no reason whatsoever to presume that she had any bias against Knox, and none to indicate that she perjured herself. One may regret the lack of a retest but it does not seem that the defence are arguing that the dna was not there at all. And indeed that would need quite a conspiracy with no obvious motive. Dr Stefanoni found odd marks on the knife which she considers indicate that the knife was vigorously cleaned. If this is the case then the small sample size is not that surprising: are we to ignore evidence in these circumstances? If it is all we have then perhaps: but it isn't

The second part rests on the possibility that the knife was contaminated. That is, on the face of it, more plausible. It could have been contaminated in the course of the investigation or it could have been contaminated in the lab.

The testimony shows that the investigators who found the knife were a different team from the one that searched the cottage: the knife was found and put in a plastic bag, which was then put into a box. There does not seem to be any possibility of contamination at that stage

Dr Stefanoni denies that contamination happened in her lab. "Well she would, wouldn't she" might be in play. And this is possible. She has a reputation to defend and it is plausible that she would wish to state that the procedures and precautions taken were of a high standard. Dr Stefanoni addressed this in her testimony. She said that there has been no instance of contamination of this sort in her lab in the last 7 years. She pointed to the fact that no DNA from any of her team was found on any of the objects tested: if contamination was a problem it would be curious that only Kerchner's DNA was transferred: sloppy procedures would be more believable if there were other contaminants from lab staff, for example: but there weren't.

The defence case rests on a possibility which exists in every case of forensic evidence of this kind: and for which there is no evidence at all. Anything can happen. The jury has to judge whether it did happen. That necessarily rests on the case presented and the credibility of the witnesses presenting it. That is true in any court in the world. There is nothing flawed in it.

b. The bra clasp.

The prosecution say that Socellito's DNA was found on Kerchner's bra clasp. Once again this is not disputed. The sample was larger and firmly attached to the clasp. The defence case rests on the fact that the clasp was not collected till a long time after the event: that in the meantime it lay about in the room where the murder happened: and that it was contaminated during that period; or later, in the laboratory.

Once again the question of contamination in the laboratory depends on the view one takes of the competence of Dr Stefanoni and her team: so naturally the defence have questioned that and the witness has testified as to the procedures adopted etc. Again this comes down to competence and, aside from this case, there does not seem to be anyone who is denying that Dr Stefanoni is respected in her field.

The time delay is important. But it is only important if one can show a source for contamination during that period: by itself it is not enough. The prosecution point out that dna is often collected long after the events it relates to and is regularly accepted as evidence: so the defence need to show that this delay led to contamination: not just that it was there

According to testimony the only source for Socellito's DNA in that house was a cigarette butt in the kitchen. So it seems that in order for contamination to occur before it got to the lab it would have to have been transferred from that; but again, no biological traces from any of the investigating team were found. If passive transfer of DNA were easy and the procedures sloppy it seems reasonable to suppose that other contamination would be in evidence. Perhaps there is a reason why that is not the case and someone will explain that. If it is true then I presume the defence will have shown that in spades to the jury, because it is rather important

Again, anything can happen: and it is the defence's job to try to show that things helpful to their case did happen. As it is the prosecution's job to show that they did not. It is for the jury to decide on the basis of the evidence presented and their judgement of the credibility of the witnesses. That is how courts work. If the jury was to accept uncritically every possible explanation which tended to exonerate the defendant we would never get any convictions at all. The test is "beyond reasonable doubt": but that does not mean beyond any possible doubt and the jury is not expected to suspend their critical faculties. They are expected to use them.

As it happens the DNA evidence on the knife and the bra clasp were not the main bits of evidence which led the judge to commit Knox and Socellito for trial. This is shown in the part of his detailed judgement after Guede's conviction which I linked above. A major plank underpinning that decision was the footprint evidence. The judge could not ignore that and neither should we.

I will come back to that if no-one else does but I have no time at present
 
Guardian Analysis: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-trial-perugia

Not that what they heard in court was all fact. The presiding judge, Giancarlo Massei, made a broad interpretation of what constituted evidence. Witnesses were allowed to repeat hearsay and to give their subjective assessment of people's attitudes and emotions. This was particularly important for Amanda Knox, because a key element of the prosecution's case was that her apparent lack of emotion after the discovery of her flatmate's corpse was an indication of her hatred of Kercher, and that her hatred of the British student had led her to murder her.

Yet very little evidence was produced to sustain that argument.
 
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1. The quality of the DNA evidence.

a.The knife.
The prosecution states that the knife found in Sollecito's home had traces of Knox's dna on the handle.That is not disputed and is explained by the fact that she regularly cooked in his apartment. Fair enough.

The prosecution states that a small trace of Kerchner's DNA was found on the knife. This was established by tests done in the lab and under the supervision of Dr Stefanoni, who is an internationally respected forensic scientist based in Rome. In July

They did not dispute the DNA was on the knife: they did not dispute it was Kerchner's. Socellito, when told of the finding, said that the reason the DNA was there was because on one occasion, while Kerchber was cooking at his home, he accidentally pricked her with the knife. But Kerchner had never been to his flat so that was really not very helpful.

There are two parts to the defence case:

There was not a big enough sample to allow for a re-test. That is certainly a problem, but it is not enough to overturn the finding. Dr Stefanano is an internationally respected forensic scientist who led the forensic team.She is based in Rome. She is experienced and so is her team, who also came from Rome. There is no reason whatsoever to presume that she had any bias against Knox, and none to indicate that she perjured herself. One may regret the lack of a retest but it does not seem that the defence are arguing that the dna was not there at all. And indeed that would need quite a conspiracy with no obvious motive. Dr Stefanoni found odd marks on the knife which she considers indicate that the knife was vigorously cleaned. If this is the case then the small sample size is not that surprising: are we to ignore evidence in these circumstances? If it is all we have then perhaps: but it isn't

The second part rests on the possibility that the knife was contaminated. That is, on the face of it, more plausible. It could have been contaminated in the course of the investigation or it could have been contaminated in the lab.

The testimony shows that the investigators who found the knife were a different team from the one that searched the cottage: the knife was found and put in a plastic bag, which was then put into a box. There does not seem to be any possibility of contamination at that stage

Dr Stefanoni denies that contamination happened in her lab. "Well she would, wouldn't she" might be in play. And this is possible. She has a reputation to defend and it is plausible that she would wish to state that the procedures and precautions taken were of a high standard. Dr Stefanoni addressed this in her testimony. She said that there has been no instance of contamination of this sort in her lab in the last 7 years. She pointed to the fact that no DNA from any of her team was found on any of the objects tested: if contamination was a problem it would be curious that only Kerchner's DNA was transferred: sloppy procedures would be more believable if there were other contaminants from lab staff, for example: but there weren't.

The defence case rests on a possibility which exists in every case of forensic evidence of this kind: and for which there is no evidence at all. Anything can happen. The jury has to judge whether it did happen. That necessarily rests on the case presented and the credibility of the witnesses presenting it. That is true in any court in the world. There is nothing flawed in it.

b. The bra clasp.

The prosecution say that Socellito's DNA was found on Kerchner's bra clasp. Once again this is not disputed. The sample was larger and firmly attached to the clasp. The defence case rests on the fact that the clasp was not collected till a long time after the event: that in the meantime it lay about in the room where the murder happened: and that it was contaminated during that period; or later, in the laboratory.

Once again the question of contamination in the laboratory depends on the view one takes of the competence of Dr Stefanoni and her team: so naturally the defence have questioned that and the witness has testified as to the procedures adopted etc. Again this comes down to competence and, aside from this case, there does not seem to be anyone who is denying that Dr Stefanoni is respected in her field.

The time delay is important. But it is only important if one can show a source for contamination during that period: by itself it is not enough. The prosecution point out that dna is often collected long after the events it relates to and is regularly accepted as evidence: so the defence need to show that this delay led to contamination: not just that it was there

According to testimony the only source for Socellito's DNA in that house was a cigarette butt in the kitchen. So it seems that in order for contamination to occur before it got to the lab it would have to have been transferred from that; but again, no biological traces from any of the investigating team were found. If passive transfer of DNA were easy and the procedures sloppy it seems reasonable to suppose that other contamination would be in evidence. Perhaps there is a reason why that is not the case and someone will explain that. If it is true then I presume the defence will have shown that in spades to the jury, because it is rather important

Again, anything can happen: and it is the defence's job to try to show that things helpful to their case did happen. As it is the prosecution's job to show that they did not. It is for the jury to decide on the basis of the evidence presented and their judgement of the credibility of the witnesses. That is how courts work. If the jury was to accept uncritically every possible explanation which tended to exonerate the defendant we would never get any convictions at all. The test is "beyond reasonable doubt": but that does not mean beyond any possible doubt and the jury is not expected to suspend their critical faculties. They are expected to use them.

As it happens the DNA evidence on the knife and the bra clasp were not the main bits of evidence which led the judge to commit Knox and Socellito for trial. This is shown in the part of his detailed judgement after Guede's conviction which I linked above. A major plank underpinning that decision was the footprint evidence. The judge could not ignore that and neither should we.

I will come back to that if no-one else does but I have no time at present

Thank you for your post, Fiona. Yours is the only post with more substantial arguments for the prosecution's case. I've read so many things published in more sensationalist media that were full of misstatements about the testimony of the defendants, overstatements of the physical evidence, failure to point out unreliability of witnesses that came forward long after the murder, salacious claims about the defendants, and always the worst interpretations of the significance of the defendants behavior.

Please post a link to where you got your information. I'd like to read it too.

Your post reduces my suspicion of a false match in the DNA test of the material on the knife. I would still like to know the probabilty of a false positive of the test used by Dr. Stefanoni.

The fourth paragraph about the bra clasp should read "According to testimony the only identified source for Socellito's DNA in that house was a cigarette butt in the kitchen." The investigators couldn't have swabbed the entire house. I haven't heard whether the nature of the material on the bra clasp has been identified. Is it likely that material could have been transferred by shoe. What other things were touched by the investigator before retrieving the clasp? Was the clasp touched in the 46 days before it was retrieved? There's also the possibility that Solecito touched the bra clasp sometime prior to the day of the murder.

Even if there was no contamination in the lab or at the crime scene or Solecito's apartment, that does not eliminate the possibility of contamination during the chain of custody of the knife, clasp, and other DNA sources.

How secure were the containers between the time they left the crime scene, I've seen a picture of an officer taking the knife out of the box to show reporters. Did other policemen go through the evidence for curiosity or show and tell? Also, what about willful contamination? The prosecutor has a history of obsessive unjust prosecution and the police demonstrated misconduct in their interrogation of Knox. The far more plentiful evidence in the OJ Simpson case was dismissed by the that jury, in part, because of suspicion of deliberate contamination of the evidence, and there was no credible evidence of police misconduct.

It wouldn't take a massive conspiracy for one overzealous evidence room guard or other person in the chain of custody to contaminate the knife and clasp.

You've addressed the quality of the DNA evidence, but what about the quantity. Could you address the fact that substantial quantities of Guede's DNA were found in the murder room and on Kercher's body but none of Knox's DNA was found in the murder room and the only bit of Solecito's DNA was that on the clasp even though this was a violent rape and murder?

Personally I think there's a not insignificant likelihood of contamination of the knife and bra during the chain of custody and there's quite an improbabilty that Knox and Solecito would murder Kercher with the knife and take it back to Solecito's apartment, scrub it, and return it to his kitchen rather than disposing of it.

The Perugia jury would have more trust in their local and national police than I do.

I'll check your previous link to see which footprint you were referring to.

I look forward to your comment about it.

ETA. I see your post's content is from the truejustice site supporting the conviction of Knox and Solecito which gives short shrift to the defense's rebuttal and witnesses and appears to overly state the credibility of the DNA evidence. If i have time, I'll look for an independent source that unbiasedly tells both sides.
 
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The length of the interrogation by Perugia police is certainly disputed. I have seen it, in the sympathetic Seattle press, variously set at six, fourteen, and more than 24 hours. Which was it? I've noticed that her defenders nearly always set it as long as possible. Why?
Her father puts it at 41. So first off, you're already failing on basic premise.

She was kept overnight, so 30 hours seems very reasonable. It seems like a logical number, while 6 and 14 do not.
 
OK, give us your premise then as to just how the behavior was evidence of guilt. Was doing cartwheels a sign of nervousness, or, was it a sign of total sociopathic depravity concerning the murder? Or is it that acting weird must mean a person is guilty just on that basis alone?

A "sign of nervousness"? C’mon....don't be so completely ridiculous...to even suggest her actions were because she was "nervous" is idiotic.

Obviously the jurors weren't completely moronic and disagreed with your "assessment"....

Was it a sign of guilt? Not necessarily…..but it certainly “raises suspicions”…..to simply discount it is really, REALLY stupid. People who are nutcases and sociopaths often act….well nutty and sociopathic.

Honestly….it’s not like we are trying to figure out some complex electromagnetic problem here…this isn’t that difficult to figure out.
 
For Scrut and others, there is no such thing as 'normal' behavior in a police station. Cops and detectives can behave normally, but anyone who doesn't work there is outside their experience when they enter.
 
That's the weird part, isn't it?

The supporters of Ms Knox are trying to paint the Italian justice system (police, investigators, jurors, prosecutors, judges) as incompetent and unable to 'properly' assess a case.

But then, having Guede in prison for the crime already, why not just fudge the rest of the evidence and stamp the file "Case Closed"? Why go through the expense and possible embarrassment of ensnaring two other innocent people? Heck, if they were incompetent clowns, why even go as far as getting Guede? They already had Lumumba and, if entirely loopy and reckless, could have just hit him with hoses until he confessed.

Instead, and contrary to the Seattle media accounts, the Italians worked tirelessly to obtain justice for the Kercher family and to get the evidence right.

(Note, too, that the Italians will be unable to allow Ms Knox to serve her sentence in the USA, closer to her family and supporters, because that country still puts people to death for capital crimes. So much for the uncivilised Italians theory!)

All very valid points....but you aren't considering the "totally awesome cartwheel theory".....

They are going through all this trouble based on their "anti-cartwheel" bias

;)
 
As other posters have mentioned, I, too, could easily imagine doing the equivalent of cartwheels in such a stressful context. It may also be that Knox is mildly autistic. Her gauche social behavior suggests this.

It appears your incompetence isn’t just limited to 9/11 conspiracy theories….so do you think Knoxs conviction was an “inside job?”

Do you really think this is all about a cartwheel?

That anyone believes that such a behavior is reason to suspect that someone is a murderer is mind-boggling.

No it’s actually quite normal and common to suggest such behavior raises suspicions.

Are you a “truther” about Knox now too?

It’s an inside jobby-job I tell ya!!!
 
If you'll look just above your multiposting, you'll see my post. It's not normal, and it's not right.

"Multiposting"?

I don't post on debate forums much anymore....so the few times I log onto JREF and actually post, I often have to play catch up.

My "multiposting" is not some conspiracy or inside job....

And you are wrong about it not being normal for a cartwheel in such circumstances to raises suspicions.

For most people it would.....and IT DID IN THE ACTUAL REAL LIFE EXAMPLE.

So your protests are almost completely worthless....it SHOULD have raised suspicions and it DID.

Did that convict her? No.
Did it raise suspicions, as it should? Yep.

She is going to jail...end of story.
 
Another thing struck me as odd about Knox's behavior when buying the thong the next day. Think about this for a moment; your roommate has been horribly murdered and raped; wouldn't there at least be a little fear that the killer was still on the loose? Wouldn't the possibility that you were the intended victim put a damper on your sex drive?

Note as well that nobody has addressed Fiona's point about the broken glass from the window being found atop the ransacked clothes in the other roommate's room. If this is true it strikes me as a vital piece of evidence. Guede would have no reason to fake a break-in; indeed, the only reason for faking a break-in would be to provide cover for someone who was ordinarily in the house.

Another oddity is the reluctance of the Italian boyfriend to completely back up Knox's story that she was at his place that night. He was on the computer, he was smoking a lot of pot, he just doesn't quite remember? I find that extremely odd. Wouldn't they both have been talking about it the next day, after learning about the murder? You know, something like "Gee, Amanda, it's a good thing you spent the night with me or you might have been killed, too!"
 
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1. The quality of the DNA evidence.

a.The knife.

The prosecution states that the knife found in Sollecito's home had traces of Knox's dna on the handle.That is not disputed and is explained by the fact that she regularly cooked in his apartment. Fair enough.

The prosecution states that a small trace of Kerchner's DNA was found on the knife. This was established by tests done in the lab and under the supervision of Dr Stefanoni, who is an internationally respected forensic scientist based in Rome. In July

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b. The bra clasp.

The prosecution say that Socellito's DNA was found on Kerchner's bra clasp. Once again this is not disputed. The sample was larger and firmly attached to the clasp. The defence case rests on the fact that the clasp was not collected till a long time after the event: that in the meantime it lay about in the room where the murder happened: and that it was contaminated during that period; or later, in the laboratory.

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Forensic expert, Dr Elizabeth Johnson, says the knife DNA means nothing, and could not have come from blood.

In the video interview, below, she states that the DNA sample on the knife, that appeared to be Meredith Kercher's, consisted of "20 or fewer human cells". Chemical tests for blood, which are more sensitive than DNA tests, were negative therefore the DNA cells "cannot come from blood". (If cleaning the knife was thorough enough to remove detectable traces of blood , DNA would also have been destroyed.)

The bra clasp was found 47 days after the murder without a known chain of custody. Dr Johnson says there are many, mostly innocent ways that the "very small amount" of DNA could have got onto on the clasp, such as Raffaele Sollecito having used the bathroom at the apartment or by the mixing of clothes in the laundry.

"These DNA results could have been obtained even if no crime had occurred."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf5PmwUhjEw

 
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One would think that huh? Again, that in and of itself isn't Damning Evidence, but it certainly does raise suspicion.

EDIT: In response to Brainster's good points.
 
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