A 15 year old girl killed a nine year old girl to see what it was like.

[Dragoonster]

But the problem is that a vast majority of those in prison will eventually be set free to walk the streets. If they get released after decades of 'punishment', chances are they won't be model citizens when they get out.

My answer isn't either/or. Our prisons are pretty terrible and need major reform in safety and rehab programs. I just think that's a completely separate issue from sentencing.

Yes of course. Shouldn't we therefore take a good look at this alternative system rather than dismiss it out of hand because of some belief that certain people deserve to be in jail regardless of the effect on society as a whole as the result?

Sure. But we shouldn't dismiss our system out of hand because of some belief that certain people don't deserve to be in jail regardless of the effect on our particular society.

So what exactly is the point of punishment? You are happy with a system where there are MORE victims under a greater level of threat of crime provided we treat convicted criminals in a harsh manner? Can you explain? I really can't follow this argument.

Again, I'm not arguing an either/or, where long (appropriate imo) sentences disallow a vigorous attempt at rehabilitation. Every criminal should attempt be rehabilitated. I don't believe restricting sentences for all crimes to 21 years would create LESS victims in the US either, so don't agree with that.

Not sure what "harsh manner" means. Just the length of sentence? I can sure understand the death penalty being harsh. But assuming the prisons are safe for inmates (from each other), and offers rehab, drug counselling, etc. I don't see what's harsh.

In and of itself what value does punishment have?

Primarily retribution on behalf of the victim.

I'm not following your argument either though. Do you think anyone should be jailed for anything? If so, why?

 

[William Parcher]

From the OP...

many facts about the crime continued to be kept secret Thursday – and may never be released by authorities unless Bustamante goes to trial for murder.

She is accused of strangling Elizabeth, cutting her throat and stabbing her.

A year ago, Bustamante posted a video to the site in which she appears to intentionally shock herself on an electric fence near her home, then goads her two younger brothers into doing the same.

This seems very unusual that a girl would be this violent and with premeditation. Crazy yes, but what kind of crazy is that? I wonder if she has hormonal irregularities causing elevated testosterone along with sociopathy. Is the "wanted to know what it feels like to kill" a sort of bogus confession/explanation for a crime that was sexually motivated? Did she rape and then kill that girl?

 

[William Parcher]

Local News

(Cole County Prosecutor Mark) Richardson declined to tell reporters any of the specific details about the murder.

Samantha Green, attorney for the Cole County Juvenile Authority, called several witnesses. Among them was Jefferson City High School Principal Jeff Dodson, who told the court Alyssa's grades were As and Bs prior to this incident. He said she attended school on a regular basis and was in school each day before Elizabeth's death.

Dodson said Alyssa had no behavioral problems, according to their records. He also said he had just casual contact with the girl, and considered her to be an average 15-year-old.

In September 2007, Cook said they found that Alyssa had spent 10 days in Mid-MO Mental Health Center after a suicide attempt, and then was treated through Pathways Community Behavioral Healthcare, dealing with depression.

He said Alyssa and her family were very involved and had attended treatment regularly. She had been prescribed Prozac for her depression.

Cook said there was an episode last year, while she attended the Simonsen 9th Grade Center where she delved into the Goth culture, which is typically associated with dark clothing and makeup as well as a fascination with vampires. He said the family had expressed concerns about Alyssa getting on the Internet and finding information about Goth activity, but that eventually stopped.

Cook also said Alyssa spent time in the woods without permission.

 

[William Parcher]

a photo of Alyssa Bustamante, the suspect in the homicide of 9-year-old Elizabeth Olten, taken from one of Alyssa's Web pages.

Is that Hello Kitty?

 

[Cicero]

This is untrue. You can reoffend while in prison (killing another inmate or personnel). So while prison offers retaliation and punishment it doesn't prevent recidivism.

The death penatly for 1st degree murder does cut down on recidivism. They are also in solitary confinement were opportunities to murder guards or other inamtes is less likely. Of course the way the death penalty is currently implemented outside of federal courts (20+ years of appeals etc), the object of the exercise will die of old age before they ever see the needle.

 

[BenBurch]

Here is the problem I have;

OK, we have this girl who committed what was undoubtedly pre-meditated murder. From the descriptions elsewhere I'd guess she is a sociopath - and it is simply not ever possible to rehabilitate them, and had she not been caught, I feel it likely she would have been a serial killer.

But where do we draw the line?

If one five-year-old hits another on the playground are we going to press charges of assault, and sentence the child to a prison term as an adult? If a 3 year old in a shopping cart grabs a candy bar from the checkout aisle in the supermarket, are we going to arrest and try her for shoplifting?

Jane Addams saw things JUST like that happening in her time and she is why we have a different system for juveniles than adults in Criminal Justice.

Were?

Where is the line?

Does it move?

If a 15 year old isn't under it, is a 12 year old? A ten year old? A mentally-simple 21 year old?

 

[slingblade]

Just a kid. Nice excuse. The arbitrary distinction you (and some of our laws) make by using age is a fool's loophole. The "it's just a kid" defense hearkens back to the trope of extending childhood as long as possible, and with it innocence, and is a relatively recent invention. (In terms of human society).

It is not necessarily the better idea. I see no reason for this murderess (if the assertion is true, that this was premeditated, and all that) to keep breathing air. The arbitrary of excuse of age is in contradiction to part of what most societies are created for: rejection of the victimization of the weak.

Well, if I understand your argument correctly (and I very well may not), we know that children have under-developed cognition, compared to adults. We know that the brain isn't fully developed and capable of well-developed cognition until around age 25. We know that the cognition of children is vastly different from that of adults, in general.

A distinction should be made between these states, depending on the individual circumstances of each case. It is not good science to state that because a child is capable of a particular act, that they must therefore be fully cognizant of the consequences of that act. This simply isn't true. A 4-year-old, for example, is fully capable of killing an infant. That obviously doesn't mean the 4-year-old would understand that act on an adult level. A 15-year-old has much better cognition than a 4-year-old, but there's still a cognitive difference between a 15-year-old brain and a 25-year-old one.

I lack the necessary information, and education, to be able to make definitive statements on this particular case and this particular child. But the base fact that a 15-year-old committed a murder doesn't automatically mean she has the necessary cognition to be held fully responsible for her act in the same way an adult would be fully responsible.

I probably didn't express my thoughts very well in this, but I hope what I'm trying to get across is somewhat understandable. That a person is a child should definitely have some bearing on the matter. It is a point to consider.
Something went badly wrong for any child to premeditate and commit an act of violence of this nature. It doesn't mean I excuse the child for it, but I'm not sure I'd call for her death.

I lack the information to know what should be done.

 

[Xulld]

I really have no idea, I assume it's determined by psychiatrists or similar in service of the court.

There's one pretty famous case where the perpetrator was sentenced to 'containment' (Thanks to Wikipedia for giving me the correct English term!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_case

So as you can see, there are ways to lock away people for life also in Norway, but it's very unusual.

Looking this up, I also found a Wikipedia article describing Norway's maximum sentences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_(Norway)

But to get back to the topic, I believe that every person should be attempted to rehabilitate and reintegrated into society.

I think every person regardless of age that commits premeditated murder really for just about any reason should be shot to death with the cheapest ammunition available myself, but that just my opinion.

 

[Careyp74]

I doubt I'll go looking for more if you still disagree with the claim:

Too bad, because insanity defense has nothing to do with Psychosis.

I recall reading some years back research that indicated if you haven't learned basic ethical and moral standards by puberty, you pretty much never will.

In other words, if this is true, she can't be rehabilitated.

Still, it seems some how unjust given that the reason she's ended up at this irredeemable point so young is probably due to circumstances completely out of her control.

I've no idea what we can do about that. Sad.

I already said it: Lock up the parents. Keep them from contributing more problems to society and use them as an example for everyone else that wants to have kids and not raise them properly.

Sorry, but I have been watching SuperNanny a lot lately, and am quite disgusted at society.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

It's not a question of can she; it's a question of will she allow herself to be rehabilitated?

Actually, the quesiton is will society allow her to be rehabilitated or will it brand her a pariah the rest of her life like most ex-convicts, or worse, just kill her to satiate the vengeful bloodlust that many Americans mistake for "justice."

 

[William Parcher]

I already said it: Lock up the parents. Keep them from contributing more problems to society and use them as an example for everyone else that wants to have kids and not raise them properly.

According to the article I posted, the family was concerned about her "going goth". FWIW.

He said the family had expressed concerns about Alyssa getting on the Internet and finding information about Goth activity, but that eventually stopped.

 

[Cainkane1]

Actually, the quesiton is will society allow her to be rehabilitated or will it brand her a pariah the rest of her life like most ex-convicts, or worse, just kill her to satiate the vengeful bloodlust that many Americans mistake for "justice."

I don't know whats going to happen to this girl but I do know whats not going to happen to her. She will not be executed. Shes too young. For her the worst case scenerio will be for her to be locked up for life.

Many things are up to her. If I were in her shoes I'd finish Highschool in prison and perhaps learn a trade. Depending on her abilities she could even go to college. Further she should at least go through the motions of being sorry for what she has done. Then if she does all these things maybe just maybe she can become eligible for parole.

I don't think she should be eligible for parole for at least thirty years.

 

[Cainkane1]

Is that Hello Kitty?

She's an attractive girl. Its just too bad she chose the path she did.

 

[Cainkane1]

But the problem is that a vast majority of those in prison will eventually be set free to walk the streets. If they get released after decades of 'punishment', chances are they won't be model citizens when they get out.

This reminds me of the Kenneth McDuff case. He had been released from prison for good behavious and he went on a raping, torturing, murdering spree that eventually cost the lives of ten girls and very possibly more.

 

[William Parcher]

She's an attractive girl. Its just too bad she chose the path she did.

I guess this is her mugshot without make-up. Another with heavy eyeliner. I happened to find a blog with her writings and a YouTube video showing the electric fence thing. In that video, her and her brothers are all wearing shirts with skulls.

 

[Ryokan]

She's an attractive girl.

Maybe all she needs is just a very good spanking...............

 

[fuelair]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/19/alyssa-bustamante-slaying_n_364544.html

I was on a grand jury in 1989 concerning a very similar case. A 15 year old boy named Randy Dobbs skipped school one day and called in a pizza delivery. The twenty year old married mother of an infant baby came to the door and was shot to death through the window.

Ok we thought that the best interests of society would be served if this boy went on trial as an adult. Georgia doesn't allow the death penalty for a person under 17. He was tried and convicted and sentenced to life with a chance of parole but I've heard that his behaviour in prison is such that the possibility of parole has been removed.

Ok along comes this girl. She planned the murder. She had even dug the childs grave before the murder. The nine year old victim had done nothing to the 15 year old. The older girl killed her to see what it felt like.

What do you guys think should be done with people like this? The murderer is just a kid herself. Could she be rehabilitated?

I really, truly, deeply do not care. Also, just a point - I do not consider the 15 year old "people". I won't go further on this.

 

[fuelair]

Actually, the quesiton is will society allow her to be rehabilitated or will it brand her a pariah the rest of her life like most ex-convicts, or worse, just kill her to satiate the vengeful bloodlust that many Americans mistake for "justice."

Me for one. Unless you show me how it can replace the 9 year old victim.

 

[AWPrime]

According to the article I posted, the family was concerned about her "going goth". FWIW.

Just a sad excuse from poor parents.


@ BenBurch
Q: But where do we draw the line?
A: It varies case to case. Normal children must get their morals before age 10, while others are born bad.

 

[Ryokan]

Me for one. Unless you show me how it can replace the 9 year old victim.

Punishing her decade after decade won't replace the 9 year old victim either. Why not try to get some good out of it? Why not, if there's even the remote chance, try to make this person into a better person, to make her see the error of her ways and repay by contributing to society?

It's the 21st century. We should put an eye for an eye and the lust for revenge behind us.

Some of the bloodlust in this thread scares me a little.