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A 15 year old girl killed a nine year old girl to see what it was like.

ETA: Sorry for hijacking the thread to rant about how we do things in Norway, but I'm convinced that society is better served with trying to rehabilitate than to punish. It's better for society in the long run. I seriously doubt Varg Vikernes now poses a threat to society in any way.

I think part of the answer lies in actually deciding what the system is for and then aligning the practices of the system with what you want it to achieve.

If you decide the system is for rehabilitation then do your best to rehabilitate the prisoners and design your system around that its got to work better than a mish mash system where you give lip-service to rehabilitation but then decide that some crimes are too serious to consider it and also throw in something about needing an element of punishment etc then of course the end result won't work as its intended.
 
And while many murderers could be rehibilitated and wouldn't ever commit a crime again, it's impossible to know for sure if they are.
The problem with that is that is is true for anybody. You don't know for sure if and when anyone will commit a crime.


Afetr a quick google I could find these statistics:

http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivism/Adult_Recidivism_CY04.pdf : 4% of murderers are arrested for murder again

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Rese...Services_Branch/Annual/RECID2/RECID2d2004.pdf
0% 2year recidivism rate for first degree murder

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rpr94pr.htm
1% recidivism rate for murder.

Murders seems to score very low for recidivism rate (as in to be arrested for murder again).

On the other hand, we know for a fact that they won't repeat their crimes (at least not against anybody on the outside) if they are in prison.
In my opinion that is as bad as murder on the outside and we should do our best to prevent that.

You're right. I'm not sure where this girl fits though, her killing the 9-year old doesn't necessarily means she's clinically psycho.
There is a difference between insane (not knowing right from wrong) as a mitigating factor. Or being a sociopath/psychopath, who knows that difference but doesn't care. From a mental health perspective both these need treatment or intervention. from a criminal justice perspective the first can not be held accountable for their actions, the second can.
 
People like this are obviously suffering from some sort of mental condition, whether it be an active psychosis or a condition like sociopathy that inhibits the normal human responses.

As such, they would normally be considered to have some sort of diminished capacity. The question is whether prison is the best we can do for these people. I would say no. Prisons at present offer little in the way of treatment for mental illness, or in many cases none at all.
Yet these people remain dangerous.... The conditions inside "secure wards" at mental hospitals are not likely much better than those in prisons.
At the present state of our understanding and treatment of mental illness, I don't know what we could do better than confining such individuals, though I think a hospital setting is marginally better than prison.
This leads me to the question I've posed before.... What if we develop the ability to cure these folks? Make 'em normal, functioning, rational, empathic human beings.

Then what? Here we have a young woman who's committed a horrific crime. She's minimally culpable due to her mental illness. Here, take a pill...There, you're all better now!
Now what? Put her on trial? Wave by-by?
Currently, states "treat" mentally-ill criminals to the point they can "participate in their own defense" and then put 'em on trial. Is that right?

I wouldn't think so.
 
Norway's most notorious murderer served 16 years in prison, one of the longest sentences served in modern times. One of the reasons for the long prison terms was because he tried to escape during one of his vacations away from prison.

You'd think a lot more didn't show up after being sent home unsupervised for the weekend, but it's pretty rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes

ETA: Sorry for hijacking the thread to rant about how we do things in Norway, but I'm convinced that society is better served with trying to rehabilitate than to punish. It's better for society in the long run. I seriously doubt Varg Vikernes now poses a threat to society in any way.

Perhaps he's unlikely to reoffend. But he definitely wouldn't if he were in prison where he belongs.
 
Do you have any evidence to the assertion that is bolded here? (deleted the "criminals and" as it does not have any relevance to the discussion)

Well, I thought it common knowledge that most murderers are not so insane that they don't know that murder is considered wrong by society. And that insanity defenses are rare, not only because the insanity is difficult to prove, but because most murderers are not insane. Here's a quick piece of evidence, though I doubt I'll go looking for more if you still disagree with the claim:

http://homepage.mac.com/belacqua/eng190_f2001/papers/ingram.html

One common misconception of the insanity defense is that it is overused. However, an eight state study conducted between 1976 and 1987 provided evidence that "the defense was used in less then 1 percent of all criminal cases, and that it succeeded in only about one-quarter of those" (Caplan 19). "In 1982, only 52 of 32,000 adult defendants represented by the Public Defender's office in New Jersey-less then two tenths of one percent-entered the insanity plea, and only 15 were successful" (http:/www.psych.org/public_info/insanity.cfm). In addition, "states with higher rates of not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity defenses tend to have lower success for not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity defenses; the percentage of all defendants found not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity is fairly consistent, at around 0.26 percent" (Chiacchia). Clearly, the insanity defense is not subject to the abuse of overuse by defendants.

Another misconception made is that the insanity defense is most often used by heinous murderers. In reality, only fourteen percent of insanity pleas in an eight state study involved murder (Caplan 19). In the state of Missouri, "twenty-five percent of insanity verdicts involved crimes such as auto theft, bad checks, and in one instance, the theft of a pen" (qtd. in Collins, Hinkebein, and Schorgl, "Insanity: myth or Fact?" sec.6).

Careyp74 said:
Look at the motive? she wanted to know what it felt like. Your motive was wanting baseball cards, hers was less materialistic.

So if I'd stolen the cards because I wanted to know what it felt like, perhaps not even liking baseball cards, I would've been psychotic? Psychosis is warped reality and irrationality, a serious mental condition. Some people are just very mean and place little value on others' lives. Some are very nice and altruistic, and want to help others. Neither attitude necessarily means one is mentally ill.
 
Well, I've never killed anybody.

True, but you have a 0.0006% chance of doing so this year anyway. According to you putting you in prison would lessen that chance to 0% which is safer for us.
 
True, but you have a 0.0006% chance of doing so this year anyway. According to you putting you in prison would lessen that chance to 0% which is safer for us.

That's a really stupid argument. Murderers have proved they are a danger to society.
 
With all due respect to the fine people in Norway that maximum punishment is too lenient. In a case like this girls premeditated murder I feel that she should never be released from prison. Your countrys policy of not holding a young person liable for their crimes no matter how odious is also too lenient.

But their crime rate is low. It must be working. If the argument is that sentences should be tougher to keep everyone else safe, I think Norway is proving that argument false.
 
There is a difference between insane (not knowing right from wrong) as a mitigating factor. Or being a sociopath/psychopath, who knows that difference but doesn't care. From a mental health perspective both these need treatment or intervention. from a criminal justice perspective the first can not be held accountable for their actions, the second can.

True and I haven't made my points well. For whether her alleged psychosis earns an insanity defense, it would have to be pretty extreme. For whether it would seriously hamper rehabilitation, it might not have to be. I suppose I'm objecting to assuming she's literally psychotic because she murdered someone for "sport". My own assumption is that most murderers murder others because they're very mean people or have little self-control, without any clinical mental illness.
 
Perhaps he's unlikely to reoffend. But he definitely wouldn't if he were in prison where he belongs.

This is untrue. You can reoffend while in prison (killing another inmate or personnel). So while prison offers retaliation and punishment it doesn't prevent recidivism.
 
True and I haven't made my points well. For whether her alleged psychosis earns an insanity defense, it would have to be pretty extreme. For whether it would seriously hamper rehabilitation, it might not have to be. I suppose I'm objecting to assuming she's literally psychotic because she murdered someone for "sport". My own assumption is that most murderers murder others because they're very mean people or have little self-control, without any clinical mental illness.

Problem is that people tend to mix up psychotic and psychopath. Also "insane" in a colloquial way and "insane" in a legal way.

As far as I can see (and without proper psychiatric testing we won't know) Just "wanting to see what happens" would fit in the psychopath diagnosis much more than in the psychotic one.

As for your last sentence: there is always debate whether "mean people or have little self-control" is or isn't a mental illness and if it can be changed.
 
I would think that if this girl hasn't figured out what right or wrong is by the time she is 15, she isn't going to figure it out. I am not talking about how it is wrong to hit people, or to steal, this is murder! Is there a possibility that this girl ISN'T a psychopath? What is the rehabilitation rate for those? Lock up the parents is what I say.

When I was about 15 I shoplifted a box of baseball cards from Walgreen's with a friend of mine because we didn't have money but wanted baseball cards, and didn't think we'd get caught. We knew what society considered right from wrong, just as most criminals and murderers do. We just decided to not follow that, weighing risk vs. reward. I don't see any reason why this girl should be considered a psychopath just because her fulfilled criminal desire was to kill someone instead of my desire to get a Fred McGriff rookie card.

You're right. I'm not sure where this girl fits though, her killing the 9-year old doesn't necessarily means she's clinically psycho.

Not to be pedantic or anything, but I highly doubt, from the brief description given, that this girl is a psychopath. She should be classified as a sociopath. Psychopaths, for the duration of their illness, are not aware of the difference between right and wrong. Sociopaths, on the other hand, know the difference; they just don't care. Careyp's description is spot on for that:

Look at the motive? she wanted to know what it felt like. Your motive was wanting baseball cards, hers was less materialistic.

She wanted to know what it felt like. She more than likely knew that killing another person was wrong, but she wanted to know what it felt like. That to me screams sociopath, not psychopath. It's things like that which lead me to believe this girl has a darned good chance, if left alone, of becoming one of the few female serial killers this nation has.

Serial killers, by and large, are sociopaths, not psychopaths (although they can have some psychopathic tendencies, as I recall from my psych classes). Given that, I don't think that this girl could necessarily be "rehabilitated" in the strictest sense of the word, assuming she is in fact a sociopath and not just a girl willing to let her curiosity overcome her good sense. Most serial killers are personable, likeable people when you're just talking to them; Ted Bundy was able to fool enough sorority girls into believing he was a nice person to get them to let him into their houses, for instance. They won't show any remorse for their actions because they quite simply don't feel any.

I give props to Norway for having one of the lowest crime/murder rates, but given that even they feel there are certain individuals that shouldn't be released back into society tells me that even they might pause at letting someone who doesn't demonstrate any believeable remorse for their actions free.

I will of course reverse my stance if this girl is shown to be sorry for her actions, but from what little I've seen, I doubt that's going to happen. Some people just can't be saved.
 
That's a really stupid argument. Murderers have proved they are a danger to society.

Yes, but you can't prove they are still a danger, nor can you prove that you are not a danger.
 
This is untrue. You can reoffend while in prison (killing another inmate or personnel). So while prison offers retaliation and punishment it doesn't prevent recidivism.

This is true I suppose. But I would much rather them kill another prisoner than an innocent person (not that this is acceptable). And guards volunatrily take the risk. And besides, they can make it so it's all but impossible for a criminal to kill somebody in prison if they want.
 
N She should be classified as a sociopath. Psychopaths, for the duration of their illness, are not aware of the difference between right and wrong. Sociopaths, on the other hand, know the difference; they just don't care.

As far as I know this is not true.The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is somewhat blurred, at least according to the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The DSM-IV lists both definitions together under the heading of Antisocial Personalities because they share common traits. Many use the terms sociopathy, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder (APD) interchangeably.

ETA. She is too young to diagnose antisocial personality disorder since you would have to be at least 18 to do so. For a girl her age you would default to probably conduct disorder.
 
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As far as I am concerned, anybody who is willing to take another person's life IS a danger to society.

You are mixing up your tenses here.

Also, what qualifies you to judge who is or isn't a danger to society?

We have a potential argument that lenient jail sentences and rehabilitation reduce the overall danger to society by lessening crime rates whereas harsh sentences do nothing to reduce crime rates. How do you balance that with your view that people deserve to be in jail?

Do you think the punishment aspect should outweight the prevention aspect?
 

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