Just what did Darwin say about homosexuality?

[Furcifer]

Is this deviant behavior:

[qimg]http://www.reddoor-yoga.com/Teachers_files/titibasana2.jpg[/qimg]

Yes, if he walks around like that all day. I knew a border collie that walked around on it's hind legs all the time. It was a deviant behaviour. The first time you saw it it was pretty cool. After a while it becomes a little disturbing though.

 

[Furcifer]

I don't know what it is and youtube is blocked in china, so I can't view whatever video it is you want me to look at.
Can you explain it?

It's a bunch of videos of people being shown two lesbians engaging in scat. Volatile is comfortable with scat, but I can assure you most people react uncomfortably to the practise. I'd be willing to say Volatile has admitted to deviant behaviour. I don't think he's a sexual deviant though.

 

[Furcifer]

Your "vagina definition" isn't a definition of proper, it's an example of proper.

If you have no meaningful definition of what is proper, I don't see why you care whether something is proper or not. You might as well say "homosexuality is cluud"

You probably want to read the entire thread. I initially used the term "proper" to discretely refer to vaginal sex. People keep asking for definitions based on entirely different things.

Proper is eating with a knife and fork. Proper sex doesn't involve cutlery. The proper place for cutley is in a drawer. The proper place for a penis isn't in a drawer in the kitchen. Context is everything.

 

[Roboramma]

You probably want to read the entire thread. I initially used the term "proper" to discretely refer to vaginal sex. People keep asking for definitions based on entirely different things.

I have read the entire thread, and I am aware of what you said about vaginal sex. You simply have presented no valid basis for those statements.

And you are still conflating an example of something which is proper with a definition of "proper".

Proper is eating with a knife and fork. Proper sex doesn't involve cutlery. The proper place for cutley is in a drawer. The proper place for a penis isn't in a drawer in the kitchen. Context is everything.

Again, you are giving examples, not definitions.

Where I live, eating with a knife and fork is improper. Something that foreigners can be forgiven for, but really, eat your dumplings with chop sticks you barbarian.
It seems you are giving now a cultural definition of what is proper, which is fine. Are you, then, saying that homosexuality is deviant in that it is contrary to certain cultural norms?

 

[Roboramma]

It's a bunch of videos of people being shown two lesbians engaging in scat. Volatile is comfortable with scat, but I can assure you most people react uncomfortably to the practise. I'd be willing to say Volatile has admitted to deviant behaviour. I don't think he's a sexual deviant though.

Ah, I see. In that case, cool. I think you misunderstand my point: I can understand that you feel uncomfortable watching gay sex, I do too. But I don't feel uncomfortable when exposed to the idea of gay sex, and I don't see why anyone would be.
But if it makes you uncomfortable, that's fine, I don't really have a problem with that. I just don't see why you consider it deviant.

 

[Roboramma]

Yes, if he walks around like that all day. I knew a border collie that walked around on it's hind legs all the time. It was a deviant behaviour. The first time you saw it it was pretty cool. After a while it becomes a little disturbing though.

I don't think anyone engages in anal sex all day. It's a short term activity.

Is the proper place for my torso in between my legs?

 

[Furcifer]

I have read the entire thread, and I am aware of what you said about vaginal sex. You simply have presented no valid basis for those statements.

And you are still conflating an example of something which is proper with a definition of "proper".



Again, you are giving examples, not definitions.

Where I live, eating with a knife and fork is improper. Something that foreigners can be forgiven for, but really, eat your dumplings with chop sticks you barbarian.
It seems you are giving now a cultural definition of what is proper, which is fine. Are you, then, saying that homosexuality is deviant in that it is contrary to certain cultural norms?

NO, I said anal sex is a deviant behaviour. I thought you said you read the thread? edit: yes, cultural norms and anatomy suggest anal sex is a deviant behaviour.

 

[Furcifer]

I don't think anyone engages in anal sex all day. It's a short term activity.

Is the proper place for my torso in between my legs?

Please, just get to your point. If your doing Yoga yes, if your eating at a restaurant no. If you are climbing Everest no, working in a circus yes. If you are displaying your flexibility to onlookers yes, going through a metal detector at an airport no. If you're on your way to the chiropractor no.

 

[Furcifer]

Ah, I see. In that case, cool. I think you misunderstand my point: I can understand that you feel uncomfortable watching gay sex, I do too. But I don't feel uncomfortable when exposed to the idea of gay sex, and I don't see why anyone would be.
But if it makes you uncomfortable, that's fine, I don't really have a problem with that. I just don't see why you consider it deviant.

Thank you. I said it was deviant because it is not a normal sexual practise. I also said that shouldn't be a hang up for anyone, as it's a very small part of homosexuality.

At this point I'm pretty comfortable with the thought of two guys doing it in the butt. The last two days have pretty much desensitized me. The whole scat thing is still disturbing.

 

[volatile]

NO, I said anal sex is a deviant behaviour.

And how did you determine this? Because" the anus is not the [anatomically and evolutionarily] proper place for the penis".

Do you now retract the anatomical / evolutionary / naturalistic definition of "proper" you used before? If so, what are you replacing it with?

 

[Furcifer]

And how did you determine this? Because" the anus is not the [anatomically and evolutionarily] proper place for the penis".

Do you now retract the anatomical / evolutionary / naturalistic definition of "proper" you used before? If so, what are you replacing it with?

What are you talking about. See the edit 3 or 4 posts ago.

You guys keep asking different questions, but seem to expect the same answers.

 

[volatile]

What are you talking about. See the edit 3 or 4 posts ago.

You guys keep asking different questions, but seem to expect the same answers.

Answer the question. You still have yet to do so.

What do you mean by "proper" and "normal"? You've used both terms numerous and contradictory ways. Will you jsut stick to one and we can go from there?

 

[Furcifer]

Answer the question. You still have yet to do so.

What do you mean by "proper" and "normal"? You've used both terms numerous and contradictory ways. Will you jsut stick to one and we can go from there?

Quote the contradictory ways I've used the term proper or normal. Quote, as in use the quote function, not make up stuff and put quotations around it.

 

[volatile]

Quote the contradictory ways I've used the term proper or normal. Quote, as in use the quote function, not make up stuff and put quotations around it.

Well if it sees an increased flow of blood and begins to secrete lubrication in anticipation it's probably the "proper" place for a penis.

[quote="ponderingturtle]Then why is oral sex proper? And not improper and deviant?

Becauyse we are considering the number of people who engage in oral sex on a rountine basis.[/quote]

In the first, you are making an evolutionary / anatomical definition. In the second, you are making a quantitative one. They are, quite clearly, contradictory.

 

[jmcvann]

I stand corrected, and very much humbled by your honesty and forthcoming.

Is it insecurities? I don't think so. I think there are other things involved. Maybe I can get over my "uncomfortability". Say I do, does that make it any less of a deviant behaviour? I don't see how it does.

I think I've changed my mind. It doesn't bother me at all. It really doesn't take much getting used to. I'm pretty much comfortable with it. Thanks jmcvann

I suppose I could complain that you've said I participated in deviant behavior, but I'm not going down the road that others here are traveling in their discussions with you. I think both sides are bound by their own narrow definitions of terms.

What I will say is that I think you're too stuck on normal/average/mean kind of thinking. Do you live your entire life only at the peak of the Bell Curve? If so, I feel a little sad for you. But if it works for you, I'm OK with it.

 

[Furcifer]

In the first, you are making an evolutionary / anatomical definition. In the second, you are making a quantitative one. They are, quite clearly, contradictory.

Yes because in this context a "proper" place and a "proper" act are different. The conditions that apply to a proper place aren't going to transcend to a proper act. Talking loudly in church isn't proper, but are you going to apply that to talking at a bar?

 

[Furcifer]

I suppose I could complain that you've said I participated in deviant behavior, but I'm not going down the road that others here are traveling in their discussions with you. I think both sides are bound by their own narrow definitions of terms.

What I will say is that I think you're too stuck on normal/average/mean kind of thinking. Do you live your entire life only at the peak of the Bell Curve? If so, I feel a little sad for you. But if it works for you, I'm OK with it.

For purposes of defining things it's certainly acceptable. To make decisions on how we treat each other as human beings no. And that's my point. There are many deviant behaviours, we all engage in them from time to time. It's doesn't
mean you should be treated any different as a person.

 

[Furcifer]

That's pretty much what I thought. Get through to these numbskull's and eventually they would relent. Being called a bigot is harsh at first. but once you realize where people are coming from you can accept their prejudices.

 

[volatile]

Talking loudly in church isn't proper, but are you going to apply that to talking at a bar?

That very much depends on your definition of proper, doesn't it?

What's yours?

 

[Roboramma]

NO, I said anal sex is a deviant behaviour. I thought you said you read the thread? edit: yes, cultural norms and anatomy suggest anal sex is a deviant behaviour.

But you "anatomy definition" of deviance is self-contradictory.

You say anal sex is deviant because the anus is an anatomically improper place to put a penis. Yet, other "anatomically improper" places to put the penis are not deviant.
Clearly, then, you are not consistently applying anatomy to determine deviance.

On the other hand you have said that cultural norms determine deviance. That's fine, and I'm happy to accept that definition, if you would only stick to it.

In other words, if all you mean by "deviant" is that homosexuality goes against certain cultural norms, then that's fine, but not particularly meaningful.