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My take on why indeed the study of consciousness may not be as simple

It is, however, possible to identify DNA, if sufficient is provided, as being definitely either rabbit or dog. Without ambiguity. Certain sequences are common to both, other sequences are unique to one or the other.
[My bold.]

It is not possible -even with a brand new oscilliscope and gold-plated leads - to look at a signal and say that it is not carrying digital information.
It is possible to say that a signal is carrying digital information. It is also possible to say that it is carrying at most X amount of digital information per Y unit of time. It is further possible to be specific with this analysis with regards to modulation and coding schemes.

The more of the signal we have, the more certain we can be with our assessment, just as is the case with your rabbit and dog. With a single base pair, you can't even guess. There is no fixed lower bound for information transfer rates - short of the heat death of the Universe - so the analogy is inexact. But for any quantitative question we can provide a quantitative answer.
 
Do you notice the construction here? :)

Equivalence would not be what you stated at all, which therefore makes it a potential fallacy of construction.

"It is not possible -even with a brand new genetic scanner and superior analysis - to look at a signal and say that it is not carrying genetic information."



:)

A DNA strand is a signal, so it's subject to the same constraints. AFAIAA it isn't possible to definitively say that any bit of DNA isn't carrying genetic information. However, that is not what is in contention. It is certainly possible to look at one given bit of DNA and not know if it belongs to a dog or a rabbit. It's possible to look at another bit and know it could not belong to one or the other. Given the entire DNA sequence, it would be possible to determine with certainty whether it belongs to one or the other.

Of course even if it were possible to say definitively that a strand of DNA does not carry any genetic information, that does not mean that one can say that it doesn't carry any digital information.
 
To return (if anyone remembers it) to the OP. Penrose is AFAIAA the only physicist of any eminence who has addressed this issue.

And he provably got it wrong (for example, in his complete misunderstanding of Goedel's theorem).

(Pace DrKitten, he is a physicist, and he is a physicist of significance).

Repeating an incorrect statement will not make it correct, no matter how many times you trye.

Hence his observations on the subject have a unique resonance,

So does a bean fart. However, with respect to consciousness, the bean fart has the advantage of not being demonstrably incorrect.
 
It might be that there is some well-defined physical connection between the computer and the brain. To return to the crystal analogy - NaCl has structural similarities and behaviour similar to other crystals, which are actually dissimilar to molecular chlorine. But this commonality is well-defined physically.

The problem is that just because some commonalities are well-defined in terms of physical properties does not mean that they all are. Commonalities can be functional as well as physical. A simple example of that would be a bridge, which can be broadly defined as providing the capacity to cross a river or similar barrier. But there are lots of different types of bridges, and you won't be able to find any physical commonality among them. What you'll find is a functional commonality.

And, in fact, the capacity to cross a river can also be provided by a ferry, which has even less in common with a suspension bridge than other types of bridges do. If all you're interested is (abstractly) moving goods from point A to point B, you don't even care whether they will be transported by bridge or by ferry. The lack of a physical commonality is irrelevant to the question you are interested in, which is the abstract functional property of transport capacity.

Indeed, there are a number of companies out there that specialize in exactly this. The whole point of a "multimodal" transport company is that it will get your goods from point A to point B without bothering you about the technical details of whether it's shipped by road, rail, ferry, container ship, or air. From the point of view of the customer, what is important is the abstract functional capacity (my goods will get there) that comprises a commonality, not the detailed physical capacities that are NOT held in common.

Computers, of course, are the same way -- we have at this point probably a hundred different definitions of "computer" that are provably TM-equivalent, even though their physical commonality is entirely different. What's the physical commonality, for example, between a Turing Machine and a Game-of-Life? What aspect of Game-of-Life corresponds to the third input cell on the tape? What aspect of a Turing machine corresponds to the notion of a "blinker"?
Computers are defined functionally, not physically.

And since we have no clear-cut definition of "consciousness," you cannot assert that it must be defined either functionally or physically. The Strong AI hypothesis is simply that "consciousness" (or "intelligence," if you prefer) is defined functionally instead of physically. Penrose claims that consciousness must be defined physically -- but since he gets the basic computing wrong, the basic neuroscience wrong, and the basic physics wrong, there is no reason to take his claims at all seriously.
 
And he provably got it wrong (for example, in his complete misunderstanding of Goedel's theorem).
Yeah, that one's pretty amazing.

I can certainly understand a mathematician having an incomplete grasp of neuroscience. But fundamentally misapplying the most profound mathematical theorem of the 20th century?
 
And since we have no clear-cut definition of "consciousness"
I was with you up to this point. ;)

Penrose claims that consciousness must be defined physically -- but since he gets the basic computing wrong, the basic neuroscience wrong, and the basic physics wrong, there is no reason to take his claims at all seriously.
But it sounds impressive!
 
A DNA strand is a signal, so it's subject to the same constraints. AFAIAA it isn't possible to definitively say that any bit of DNA isn't carrying genetic information. However, that is not what is in contention. It is certainly possible to look at one given bit of DNA and not know if it belongs to a dog or a rabbit. It's possible to look at another bit and know it could not belong to one or the other. Given the entire DNA sequence, it would be possible to determine with certainty whether it belongs to one or the other.

And you can't do this same sort of thing with a signal?

We can't, for instance, look at a radio signal and determine whether or not it encodes a particular television program in analog or digital, given that we know exactly what each of the signals encoding those programs will look like?

I think you are ignorant of the fact that we only know what the DNA of a rabbit or a dog looks like because we have sequenced the DNA of existing rabbits and dogs. Have you gone from being 30 years out of date to thinking we can determine the exact phenotype of a mammal just by glancing at a sequence?
 
I think you are ignorant of the fact that we only know what the DNA of a rabbit or a dog looks like because we have sequenced the DNA of existing rabbits and dogs. Have you gone from being 30 years out of date to thinking we can determine the exact phenotype of a mammal just by glancing at a sequence?
Excellent point.

If you didn't have a basis for comparison, westprog, what would you do when presented even with an animal's complete DNA?
 
It is, however, possible to identify DNA, if sufficient is provided, as being definitely either rabbit or dog. Without ambiguity. Certain sequences are common to both, other sequences are unique to one or the other.

It is not possible -even with a brand new oscilliscope and gold-plated leads - to look at a signal and say that it is

Wait. I must be reading you wrong, because what I think you are saying is absurdly stupid, and I don't think you are absurdly stupid.

It seems like you are claiming that we can't hook up a signal to an oscilliscope and definitively say whether the signal encodes information for a given system that we know exactly what the information encoding looks like. That is absurdly stupid.

And it seems like that is what you are claiming because rabbits and dogs are systems that we know exactly what the information encoding them looks like. We have a physical template, in fact, just like we could get a physical template for the information encoding an analog or digital television program.

So, assuming you are familiar with the proper way to have a discussion -- where analogies are supposedly equivalent in some way -- I am not sure what to make of this. Perhaps you just forgot that analogies are supposed to be equivalent? Or is that really what you think?
 
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The problem is that just because some commonalities are well-defined in terms of physical properties does not mean that they all are. Commonalities can be functional as well as physical. A simple example of that would be a bridge, which can be broadly defined as providing the capacity to cross a river or similar barrier. But there are lots of different types of bridges, and you won't be able to find any physical commonality among them. What you'll find is a functional commonality.

And, in fact, the capacity to cross a river can also be provided by a ferry, which has even less in common with a suspension bridge than other types of bridges do. If all you're interested is (abstractly) moving goods from point A to point B, you don't even care whether they will be transported by bridge or by ferry. The lack of a physical commonality is irrelevant to the question you are interested in, which is the abstract functional property of transport capacity.

Indeed, there are a number of companies out there that specialize in exactly this. The whole point of a "multimodal" transport company is that it will get your goods from point A to point B without bothering you about the technical details of whether it's shipped by road, rail, ferry, container ship, or air. From the point of view of the customer, what is important is the abstract functional capacity (my goods will get there) that comprises a commonality, not the detailed physical capacities that are NOT held in common.

Computers, of course, are the same way -- we have at this point probably a hundred different definitions of "computer" that are provably TM-equivalent, even though their physical commonality is entirely different. What's the physical commonality, for example, between a Turing Machine and a Game-of-Life? What aspect of Game-of-Life corresponds to the third input cell on the tape? What aspect of a Turing machine corresponds to the notion of a "blinker"?
Computers are defined functionally, not physically.

And since we have no clear-cut definition of "consciousness," you cannot assert that it must be defined either functionally or physically. The Strong AI hypothesis is simply that "consciousness" (or "intelligence," if you prefer) is defined functionally instead of physically. Penrose claims that consciousness must be defined physically -- but since he gets the basic computing wrong, the basic neuroscience wrong, and the basic physics wrong, there is no reason to take his claims at all seriously.

I can't speak for westprog, but what I guess he/she would say is that there isn't even a functional definition of computation that separates a working computer from a pile of parts.
 
No - crystallisation of NaCl is different to what goes on in the two different elements.

Sauce for the goose, then.

What I've been saying - and it's not my fault that I had to come back and repeat it - is that if it is claimed that computation is going on in the computer, and not in the pile of disconnected parts, and if it is also claimed that computation is a specifically physical process, and not an expression of how people use the computer

How people use the computer IS a physical process. Also, electrical current doesn't flow in the dissassembled parts, does it ?
 
A DNA strand is a signal, so it's subject to the same constraints. AFAIAA it isn't possible to definitively say that any bit of DNA isn't carrying genetic information. However, that is not what is in contention. It is certainly possible to look at one given bit of DNA and not know if it belongs to a dog or a rabbit. It's possible to look at another bit and know it could not belong to one or the other. Given the entire DNA sequence, it would be possible to determine with certainty whether it belongs to one or the other.

Of course even if it were possible to say definitively that a strand of DNA does not carry any genetic information, that does not mean that one can say that it doesn't carry any digital information.

And there are the same contraints on digital vs. analog signals.

:)

So are you still saying that we can not physically an analog computation from a digital computation?
 
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Alright.

I have been lurking in this thread for some time, and there is something that I don't quite understand...

What on earth is the relevance of the computer vs. a pile of computer parts?

How is this any different than a brain vs. a sloppy bag of brain parts?

Please. Enlighten me!
 

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