Hi !Kaggen this is a great post, and will take some time to respond to appropriately.
When I become aware of thoughts its after these thoughts were created by thinking. In other words, consciousness is something I am only aware of after thinking separates me/subject from my thoughts/object. I am not at this stage implying what they were before thinking only that through thinking I am aware that they are not the same thing. So we do not experience thinking as such only thoughts and thereafter we can reflect (using thinking) on the thinking that created these thoughts and the consciousness which is now aware of them. Of course we could argue that without consciousness thinking would not happen. But we can say nothing of consciousness without thinking, so any reference to pre-thinking consciousness is metaphysics.
Okay, that is the part that will take some pondering and digestion to come up with a good communicative response to.
I will note at this time, that is a very high level abstracted description of potential behaviors and that it needs refinement into the actual base behaviors that you are describing.
Which is common in these threads, people often approach things from an abstraction rather than a concrete dimension. But it does point out my common thread that there is vagueness to the description. In many places you mention behaviors that would have to be supported by memory of some sort, yet the word usage of memory does not appear.
This is also very common and not a bad thing, just points out the vagueness issue.
Sure you might question thinking as an assumption as Robin does.
Nope I asked very different question, and seriously I don't think you understood Robin. But that too is very common. We often get invested in ideas and then these emotional responses occur unbidden.
The questions are often the same, I just phrase them differently I also have some history with you and so I know that you will actually try to understand things.
But why not just continue to question that which questions thinking and so on. Unless of course you announce that consciousness is a metaphysical proposition which is what UE proposes as a solution. In which case any logical discussion about consciousness is impossible- see Wittgenstein again.
No I do not question thinking, I just remind people that it is an appearance and not a base unit of anything.
Then again you could just ignore consciousness as RandFan/Pixy Misa/Joe TheJuggler/Rocketdodge/PingofPong do
Major misunderstanding. Take a step back, you have entered a discussion that is very old on this forum. There are many irrational people who have participated in these threads and have made some really wild and aggressive arguments. Often the posters you are listing are responding to those theatrics and emotions.
Take some time, let is roll. Notice what people are trying to say, not the way they say it.
and announce that science will give us the proper definition of consciousness once we have created it outside ourselves. This is the metaphysical proposition that science exists a priori to consciousness.
That’s nice and irrelevant, we only have appearances, and the ontology of existence is moot. The entire world we have is that ontology. Science is a tool, and does not exist prior top- humans (that we know of), however the apparent world has all these factors which point to the consistency of the 'laws of nature' that extend through the apparent space and back in time.
The metaphysics only becomes apparent when you start asking how much of "something" do we need to create this consciousness and you are told consciousness does not have to do with "something".
Funny that, you totally ignored my response to the question, it not the amount but the arrangement and interaction, but please carry on.
Then David suggests the problem with this approach is the definition of consciousness and we are back were we started.
Please, I know these discussions are frustration, but avoid these kind of rants, they are non-productive.
I am , you will note, still headed in same direction, differentiate the multiple posters and ideas.
