Score one of the good guys!!

Skeptic said:

Hitler loved animals, let homosexuals advance in his party, and banned smoking--all progressive views far in advance of his time.
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Excerpts from Vera Laska

Very little has been written about the tens of thousands of homosexuals who were the damnedest of the damned, the outcasts among the outcasts in the concentration camps. There are really only estimates of figures. During the twelve years of Nazi rule, nearly 50,000 were convicted of the crime of homosexuality. The majority ended up in concentration camps, and virtually all of them perished.
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Mycroft said:

Okay, you got the stage. Tell me.

What did he do that was so great?
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He was enigmatic.
Yassin built a network of health, education and welfare services funded privately from donations collected worldwide that helped thousands of Palestinians.
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Yet, he supported suicide bombers. I think what we need to acknowledge is that trying to fit everyone into the mold of totally good or totally evil is a mistake. Every person has some of each in them.

I notice, though, that the US is backing down on supporting Israel on this.
"The event, in our view, increases tension and doesn't help our efforts to resume progress towards peace."
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Pretty interesting in view of their stated intent to assassinate Ben Laden and (before he was captured), Saddam Hussein.
 
Does Hammas have the ability to kill Israelie leaders wh/o blowing up innocent people?

Does Israel have the ability to catch these terrorsist guys, instead of using copter hits??


ALot of the discussion revolves around the two sides being purpsoly ruthless. I was wondering if they have softer options that they choose to ignore.
 
Tmy said:
Does Hammas have the ability to kill Israelie leaders wh/o blowing up innocent people?
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Have they ever tried? Not that I can recall. They generally don't even go after government targets, let alone the leadership.

Since their stated goal is the extermination of Israel, I imagine they see one dead Jew as good as any other, regardless of rank.

Does Israel have the ability to catch these terrorsist guys, instead of using copter hits??
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Timmy, why don't the cops clean up those gang-infested neighborhoods in Boston? Could it be because the criminals enjoy local support, out of family ties or fear, from residents? Could it be because it's almost impossible to determine a criminal on sight alone? Could it be because the cops are plain outgunned and unwelcome?

Now add the aspect of violated sovereignty, and you'll have your answer.


ALot of the discussion revolves around the two sides being purpsoly ruthless. I was wondering if they have softer options that they choose to ignore.
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The IDF had the chance to whack this guy months ago but didn't take the shot because there were estimates of 50-60 civilian casualties if the attack went ahead.

The only reason a Hamas bomber would restrain himself from 50-60 civilian casualties is because it wouldn't be enough.

Do the math, man.
 
The mob has alot of street level support but I dint see the feds firing missles at them.

I guess the answer is "No they dont have the ability to catch these guys." Fine. I woudl guess that the flip is also correct. That the Israeli leader are equally untouchable.

Thats too bad. Cause if it was just thr leaders getting whacked Im sure they wouldnt be so quick to pick fights.

Hopefully assinations will be the new trend rather than body count shootings and bombings.
 
Tricky said:

He was enigmatic.

Yassin built a network of health, education and welfare services funded privately from donations collected worldwide that helped thousands of Palestinians.
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Yet, he supported suicide bombers. I think what we need to acknowledge is that trying to fit everyone into the mold of totally good or totally evil is a mistake. Every person has some of each in them.
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There’s nothing good about any of that. He supported his own kind, while pursuing a goal of genocide against those he who were different from him. If a white guy exclusively supported whites while preaching hate, genocide and murder against blacks, he would be condemned as racist and/or evil.


But I forgot, muslims and anyone who isn’t white or christian are incapable of real hatred.
 



There’s nothing good about any of that. He supported his own kind, while pursuing a goal of genocide against those he who were different from him. If a white guy exclusively supported whites while preaching hate, genocide and murder against blacks, he would be condemned as racist and/or evil.
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Agreed. I don't see how it speaks well to our humanity to try and dig nuggets of philanthropy out of a mountain-sized dungheap of a man like him.

How many of those he "helped" did he later encourage - or even ORDER - to take a C4 enema on a bus?
 
Originally posted by a_unique_person
I am glad you are finally coming around to see my point of view. And I thought debating of JREF was a waste of time.
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I bet that felt good.
 
When someone who believes that the Palestinians only weapon against Israel is their bodies gets blown up, it is in a way, poetic justice. Tricky's article points out that he never shied away from promoting the destruction of Israel and kept his terrorists in tight control.

It seems apparent that some of these leaders, Arafat especially, believe that they are a voice on the world stage only so long as there is strife in the Middle East. No one is going to hear their cries if they are Haiti or some African poverty state.

If Arafat is going to keep control, and keep the money flowing in, the last thing he wants is peace. He has shown no aptitude for governing. He just another malignant narcissist.

The Palestinian people deserve better but until the purveyors of hate are purged from the system and the weapons are confiscated for 20 years they will be unable to stop digging their own grave deeper still.
 
Tricky said:
Yet, he supported suicide bombers.
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Yassin didn't 'support' suicide bombers. He invented the concept of using religion to pevert men, women and children to strap bombs on themselves and commit suicide in order to mass murder.

Tricky said:
I think what we need to acknowledge is that trying to fit everyone into the mold of totally good or totally evil is a mistake. Every person has some of each in them.
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The Hamas has a 'civilian' wing that supports education and social programs, ( indoctrination process ), and a 'military' wing that engages in terrorist acts, ( The Official Hamas inductee 'retirement' program :( ).
 
a_unique_person said:


It's not that simple. Reasoning like that is what prolongs the conflict.
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Indeed so. If the jews didn't fight, back, the conflict would have been over by now. They'd be dead.

As for you lecturing us on what "isn't simple", I'd be more impressed about your "expert opinion" if you could, for instance, say "can I have a cup of coffee?" in hebrew or Arabic, or tell me what israel's third-largest city is without looking it up.
 
I think the best advice would be to call the police, or to get to a safe place.

It's an analogy, Tmy. Your recommendation to israel is not to fight Hamas (or, if it does, by no means to actually hurt its leaders) in the hope that MAYBE Hamas will not kill THAT many israelies if it isn't "provoked" by israel fighting back.

This is precisely the sort of advice that used to be given to battered women: be nice, do as he says, submit to his whims, and MAYBE he won't beat you up THAT badly. After all, we don't want to "encourage the cycle of violence", do we?
 
Skeptic said:


Indeed so. If the jews didn't fight, back, the conflict would have been over by now. They'd be dead.
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That may have been true 40 years ago but its not today. The mid east has changed. I think most of the region has accepted the fact that Isreal is not going anywhere.

If Isreal pulled back some of the settlements, pulled out of Jerusalem and Palistine was given its free n clear independence then the fighting would all but stop. Thats not going to happen (especially the Jerusalem part) but I think the days of "driving them into the sea" are over.
 
Tmy said:


That may have been true 40 years ago but its not today. The mid east has changed. I think most of the region has accepted the fact that Isreal is not going anywhere.

If Isreal pulled back some of the settlements, pulled out of Jerusalem and Palistine was given its free n clear independence then the fighting would all but stop. Thats not going to happen (especially the Jerusalem part) but I think the days of "driving them into the sea" are over.
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Then I guess these organizations exist for the sole purpose of training atheletes for the soon-to-be-included "self detonation" games in the 2008 Olympics, right?

And why do you think Israel won't be driven into the sea? It's certainly nothing to do with any change in the arab mindset.
 
Skeptic said:
I think the best advice would be to call the police, or to get to a safe place.

It's an analogy, Tmy. Your recommendation to israel is not to fight Hamas (or, if it does, by no means to actually hurt its leaders) in the hope that MAYBE Hamas will not kill THAT many israelies if it isn't "provoked" by israel fighting back.

This is precisely the sort of advice that used to be given to battered women: be nice, do as he says, submit to his whims, and MAYBE he won't beat you up THAT badly. After all, we don't want to "encourage the cycle of violence", do we?
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I didnt say they shoudnt fight Hamass. ALthough I question the wisdom of their tactics. Mid morning missle attack out side mosque is surely going to lead world wide scorn and some big retaliation attack.

Putting it into a battered women context, its like shooting the abusive husband. That will lead to a whole worse situation. There are better ways of solving the problem.
 
Tony said:


There’s nothing good about any of that. He supported his own kind, while pursuing a goal of genocide against those he who were different from him. If a white guy exclusively supported whites while preaching hate, genocide and murder against blacks, he would be condemned as racist and/or evil.
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I am not denying he was racist and evil. All I am saying is that nobody is wholly racist and evil. He did not spend his whole life supporting suicide bombers. Some of it was spent trying to help his people in constructive ways.
Tony said:
But I forgot, muslims and anyone who isn’t white or christian are incapable of real hatred.
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You didn't forget it. I never said it. That is your little straw man. In fact, my words were:
Originally posted by Tricky
I think what we need to acknowledge is that trying to fit everyone into the mold of totally good or totally evil is a mistake. Every person has some of each in them.
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I should add, that they have them in different proportions.
 
Tmy said:
If Isreal pulled back some of the settlements, pulled out of Jerusalem and Palistine was given its free n clear independence then the fighting would all but stop.
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tmy, Jerusalem was never 'palestinian'. Yet jews lived there way back in 1000 B.C.! The only time in history Jerusalem was under Arab rule was from 638 A.D. to 1010 A.D. and from 1948-1967 when Jordan controlled Jerusalem and funny enough, they didn't create a palestinian state or make Jerusalem it's capital.
 
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