Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Pax do you believe there was a historic Christ?
Historic "Christ"? No.
Historic Jesus sure...one, two or twenty Yeshuahs perhaps. I believe that there were multiple apocalyptic rabbis some named Yeshuah and some not who got amalgamated together into one super Jesus.

"Hey, a fringe Rabbi that was God himself? So his name was actually Yeshua and not Bob? That was MY magic Rabbi!!! So that's how he managed to make my ace of spades disappear...ooooh.
Someone saw him crucified last month? Don't be silly he was in Bethlehem the whole time. He's still alive...what he's been resurrected!!! Wow."

So again, which historic Jesus are you talking about?
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always had the impression Jesus was sought precisely for that; the story of the centurion comes to mind as an example.

The move from teacher to messiah was probably gradual. Given that my comment pertained to the perceptions of those who came to him, I surmise that initially there was no divinity in their minds regarding Christ but their opinion on that evolved. Re the centurion and the servant from Mark 7, sounds like any port in a storm, it was worth a try, from the centurion who loved his servant.
 
Amb, as you probably noted I have kept away from the etherial/divine Christ, instead busying myself with the "did this historic character really exist" which I believe is a given even to most atheists.
my bolding


Whoa!!!!!

You'll need to stop believing that really, really quickly, because it's really, really wrong.
 
Historic "Christ"? No.


So again, which historic Jesus are you talking about?


I can only refer to Tacitus and his id of a messiah called Christ and his followers called christians who was crucified in Judea in the reign of Pontias Pilot....but you have refuted that from the start. Do you discount all Tacitus chronicled of his times.

PS this multi posting still eludes me...sorry.
 
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I can only refer to Tacitus and his id of a messiah called Christ and his followers called christians who was crucified in Judea in the reign of Pontias Pilot....but you have refuted that from the start. Do you discount all Tacitus chronicled of his times.

PS this multi posting still eludes me...sorry.
Refute what? That Tacitus reported about a fringe cult called Christians and their beliefs about a god-man decades after the formation of the cult's myths and legends?
No. Why should I?

Hey did you read the BBC report about Scientology and Xenu?
 
Refute what? That Tacitus reported about a fringe cult called Christians and their beliefs about a god-man decades after the formation of the cult's myths and legends?
No. Why should I?

Hey did you read the BBC report about Scientology and Xenu?

I did not read it but I will if it has bearing on our debate. Pax you did not tell me whether you believe other chronicles from Tacitus have verasity or not.
 
I did not read it but I will if it has bearing on our debate. Pax you did not tell me whether you believe other chronicles from Tacitus have verasity or not.
Don't know. I haven't delved into the other parts of Tacitus' writings that Christian apologist don't use as often. My interest is more pre-Christian Roman history.

I would take his writings with as much salt as anything written by Josephus or any early historian.
 
I did not read it but I will if it has bearing on our debate. Pax you did not tell me whether you believe other chronicles from Tacitus have verasity or not.

Well; Tacitus treated of the history and politic of the Roman Empire, so, things that were more common knowledge.
Furtheremore, the period his work covered started in 14 AD and he actually had met many of the actors of the events in question, or was once or twice removed from them.
We also have many corroborative evidences for the events he describes, from the works of other contemporary historians, for example, such as Pliny, as well as archaelogical evidences such as coins, steles and such.
Tacitus also generally mentions his sources, other historians, or official documents.

Even then, when essentially considered quite reliable, historians have debated his accuracy over some points, the annals, in particular, seem to be considered the less reliable of his work.
It is never black and white, you see, even when historians consider a source generally reliable, they always approach it with a grain of salt, especially in the cases when corroborative testimonies are not available.


Finally, there are some arguments that the whole quote may actually have been a later addition by a Christian scribe, like the most famous one in Josephus almost certainly is.
It is a minority opinion though, most people considered that 'Chrestians' were indeed in Rome at the time and that Nero blamed them for the fire. Tacitus, knowing about the Christian beliefs in Jesus martyrdom, would have made a passing mention of it, but did not feel it worthy of further investigation, his purpose was Roman politic after all, not the Religious sects of the Middle-East, and the idea of a Jewish prophet being executed was not one to raise any suspicion; they literally were using them to ornate his roadways.
 
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Thanks for the answer, sonofgloin.

The move from teacher to messiah was probably gradual.

Why do you think that? I had the impression Jesus started his ministry with the changing of water to wine at the behest of his mother. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Given that my comment pertained to the perceptions of those who came to him, I surmise that initially there was no divinity in their minds regarding Christ but their opinion on that evolved.

Divinity, perhaps not. But why 'surmise' that, sonofgloin?

Re the centurion and the servant from Mark 7, sounds like any port in a storm, it was worth a try, from the centurion who loved his servant.

You're quite right I'm sure, any port in a storm (thanks for the chapter). Still, it seems to me the centurian would have heard about Jesus not because of his preaching, but rather for his miracle-working.
 
Why do you think that? I had the impression Jesus started his ministry with the changing of water to wine at the behest of his mother. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

consider the qualification I made to the premise

"The move from teacher to messiah was probably gradual. Given that my comment pertained to the perceptions of those who came to him, I surmise that initially there was no divinity in their minds regarding Christ but their opinion on that evolved."

Pakeha disregarding any witnesses to the miracles, the other faithful must have come to regard him as a mesiah. Even though they had the expectation from others who spoke of him as a messiah they would make the judgement based on what they heard and saw of the man for he did not perform miracles like a sunday matinee. That is what I mean by gradual indoctrination.

]Divinity, perhaps not. But why 'surmise' that, sonofgloin?

As above

You're quite right I'm sure, any port in a storm (thanks for the chapter). Still, it seems to me the centurian would have heard about Jesus not because of his preaching, but rather for his miracle-working.

Asolutely he was seeking a service not a parable.
 
But the writings of every Tom, Dickus and Harry who wrote about Christ ARE included in the Bible. If their writings were to appear OUTSIDE of the Bible, then that MIGHT be evidence that the New Testament writers were telling the truth.

That would be a step up on what's been presented in your few dozen posts to date.
Eh? What about all the other gospels etc? Gospel of Thomas etc?
 
It's a shame that Randi starts off by stating something wrong - there is no account of Christ's birth in John 1. It's something very very basic.
 
Thanks for sharing your reasoning, sonofgloin.
..."The move from teacher to messiah was probably gradual. Given that my comment pertained to the perceptions of those who came to him, I surmise that initially there was no divinity in their minds regarding Christ but their opinion on that evolved."

Pakeha disregarding any witnesses to the miracles, the other faithful must have come to regard him as a mesiah. Even though they had the expectation from others who spoke of him as a messiah they would make the judgement based on what they heard and saw of the man for he did not perform miracles like a sunday matinee. That is what I mean by gradual indoctrination.

I liked the 'disregarding any witnesses to the miracles' disclaimer.

The 'sunday matinee' reference was good, too.
Perhaps you're right, since I daresay the multiplication of the loaves and fishes was more a nine days' wonder than a sunday matinee.

Gradual indoctrination? Shades of Xenu.
Seriously though, gradual indoctrination to what end?
accepting Jesus as messiah?
What would the word 'messiah' mean in that time and context?


Asolutely he was seeking a service not a parable.
The services of a wonder worker.
 
But the writings of every Tom, Dickus and Harry who wrote about Christ ARE included in the Bible. If their writings were to appear OUTSIDE of the Bible, then that MIGHT be evidence that the New Testament writers were telling the truth.


Eh? What about all the other gospels etc? Gospel of Thomas etc?


Fair cop, I suppose, or was my post just a bit apocryphal.
 
Refute what? That Tacitus reported about a fringe cult called Christians and their beliefs about a god-man decades after the formation of the cult's myths and legends?
No. Why should I?

Hey did you read the BBC report about Scientology and Xenu?


I did not read it but I will if it has bearing on our debate.


I have to think that you've missed paximperium's point here.

The BBC reporting that some fruitcakes believe in Xenu is the same as Tacitus reporting that some ancient fruitcakes believed in Jeebus.

The reports that believers exist DO NOT speak to the verasity, or the veracity, of the beliefs themselves.

This is exactly the same problem Doc has with the arguments presented in his one or two posts in this thread, which are out there for all to see and to speak for themselves.

Perhaps I need to draw a picture?
 
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