• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

How do you guys explain really bizarre cases of synchronicity?

If the teapot example is meaningful, what meaning does it have? I understand that Teapots Happen is insisting this little anecdote is fraught with meaning, but I can't see what the meaning was. Was the universe telling him to drink more tea?
 
O, wow, I was just in that church last Sunday! Almost impossible!

Wow, imagine the odds that all three of us with associations there would meet up here in the middle of an out-of-the-way thread in the murk of the Forum!!. What are the odds!!!:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:D
 
Actually the studies show that you can have accurate memories of some events, but that inaccurate memories can seem just as valid to the individual.
That contradicts my experience. I concede that I have sometimes juxtaposed events in time, but once I obtained more information, I understood how the juxtaposition occurred. I have failed to turn up any evidence that I have ever had a false memory.
 
... this is a waste of time, though. Because you guys aren't looking for any kind of "evidence" at all, you're simply looking for reasons to disbelieve, reasons to dismiss - easy ways you can put this aside without rocking the boat of your reductionist worldview, in which any pattern that you cannot fit into your limited understanding is automatically written off as "random."
I couldn't agree more that most people here are looking for reasons to disbelieve. However, I'm still having trouble understanding why you remain an atheist. Do you perhaps believe that the universe came into existence randomly, but then became non-random through natural processes?
 
That contradicts my experience. I concede that I have sometimes juxtaposed events in time, but once I obtained more information, I understood how the juxtaposition occurred. I have failed to turn up any evidence that I have ever had a false memory.

You mean your memory of your ability to remember events accurately tells you that you have the ability to remember things with unfailing accuracy?
 
Thanks ... but are you saying that you do not see a pattern in these events? That the two teapots were not related, or that my decision to follow intuition didn't lead me to buy the first one? Because I can assure you that was indeed the case ...

I'm saying that the human mind evolved to perceive patterns to such an efficient extent that we tend to see them even where none exist. That is to say, we impose patterns on collections of events which may not be inherent in the events themselves. This has been demonstrated many times with, among other things, series of random numbers. If each digit in a series has a equal probability of appearing in each position, it is entirely possible to end up with a series that looks like 8472195321048213922103521785... etc.

Most people who spend a little time examining that string will notice a "pattern" -- three digits, 21, three digits, 21, etc. If the pattern holds true, it would be reasonable to predict that the next two digits will be 2 1, but if the series has been truly randomly generated there is no particular reason why they should be.

We impose patterns on the world because if a pattern is really there, then it has predictive value, and being able to predict something in advance, rather than react to it after the fact, can have a good deal of survival value. The problem is that if the pattern we think we see is not really a property of the collection of events we are looking at, then it has no predictive value -- though we might fool ourselves into believing that it does.

The richer the collection of events we observe, the more material we have to work with to make correlations which we can interpret as patterns, regardless of whether they're there or not. You described a very rich collection of essentially unrelated events, and you made a number of correlations that are interesting because they seem to imply the presence of a pattern where none would ordinarily be expected. But there is really no evidence to indicate that the interest in those correlations is anything more than an artifact of the way our brains happen to work in trying to make sense of the world.


Your response confuses me.

I did not hallucinate the teapots while on LSD

Nor did I hallucinate the snakes in my car.

- I had a 'mystical experience' (not merely a happy one - please look up the term since I cannot add links to posts), which left me with the notion that the world was profoundly interconnected and essentially magical - and that in such a reality, intuition was a useful guide that I should learn to pay attention to.

You had, in fact, a number of experiences upon which you collectively imposed a pattern. You have chosen to interpret your 'discovery' of that pattern as "a mystical experience".

This led directly to me 1) buying the teapot and 2) buying my house. (not on acid in either case)

I'm glad to hear that you didn't buy your house while on acid. :)

Perhaps I am missing/misunderstanding your point(s) though?

Perhaps so. It is a complex point, in keeping with the complexity of your story. What I attempted to illustrate was:

a) a not uncommon effect of certain hallucinogenic drugs is the apparent perception of
certain correlations/underlying meanings in experiences encountered while under the
influence (e.g., everything is right with the world; god is in everything, etc.)

b) such experiences can be very memorable and even influential on subsequent behavior;
one may vividly remember not only sensory impressions, but also those more esoteric
feelings of "rightness" or "connectedness"

c) such memories can easily be triggered by subsequent encounters with components of the
original experience (in your case, a teapot; in mine, snakes)

d) in the event such a recall is triggered there can be a strong tendency to correlate the
current trigger with the previous event

e) as every Stats 101 prof knows, for most people it's a short step from discovering an
apparent correlation, to assuming that it implies a causal connection

f) Voila! Synchronicity.

In my case it is not so surprising that mowing a lawn with knee-high dandelines might recall a previous (pleasant) experience in which those dandelions seemed to morph into snakes. However, subsequently discovering two live snakes in a car which snakes would not ordinarily have been expected to be able to enter, at a location and under conditions in which one would not ordinarily expect to find snakes, understandibly produced a tendency to correlate the trigger event -- the snakes -- with the recalled experience, rife with its sensations of underlying mystical purpose.

I could have run with that and assumed that the universe was mystically "trying to tell me something." (Indeed, upon hearing my story, my brother's first comment was "So, did you piss off a wizard or what?") Since there were, however, a whole raft of more mundane and more highly plausible explanations for snakes being in my car, I chose not to make that interpretation of events.

You mileage, obviously, varies from mine.
 
Rodney said:
That contradicts my experience. I concede that I have sometimes juxtaposed events in time, but once I obtained more information, I understood how the juxtaposition occurred. I have failed to turn up any evidence that I have ever had a false memory.
So you had a false memory of the order of events, then later you learned it was a false memory, but you've never had a false memory? Am I missing something here?

You're the second person I've talked to today who claims never to have had a false memory. Of course, you have no way of knowing which of your memories may be false.

I have the memory of a very interesting event in college that I know occurred to Donna. However, I recently learned that Elaine claims it happened to her. Since it involves some physical danger, I assume that Elaine is remembering correctly. Nonetheless, I remember it happening to Donna.

http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Papers/Py104/loftus.mem.html

~~ Paul
 
Last edited:
You're the second person I've talked to today who claims never to have had a false memory. Of course, you have no way of knowing which of your memories may be false.
That's why we should rely on the studies and not someone's self-assessment.

Rodney's claim is right up there with people who claim that dialing and talking on the cell phone doesn't impair their ability to drive a car--just because they've never noticed the problems they caused in traffic since their attention was so diverted.
 
I've experimented with paying attention to coincidences, since the teapots. And I found that weird coincidences happen quite frequently.

If they happen with such frequency, by what criteria would they be considered "weird"?

I'll again suggest that folks check out the essay "Can an Atheist Have a Religious Experience" - it was written by the editor of the Australian Rationalist and it's pretty interesting. Also you might check out the Johns Hopkins studies done recently on Psilocybin and mystical experiences ... fascinating stuff:

Check out the work by Michael Persinger. Anyone can have such an experience, if you bring a sufficiently strong magnetic field into close proximity with the right temporal lobe of the brain:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html
 
I just happened to be re-reading bits of Jamie Whyte's Crimes Against Logic. There's an entire chapter on the topic of coincidence. (I wish I could reproduce it all here.)

Just a snippet:
Whyte said:
Not believing in coincidences is part of a manly pose adopted by many who fancy themselves savvy. They don't trust strangers, they don't count their money while sitting at the table, and they don't believe in coincidences. It's a shame, because coincidences happen all the time; they are statistically guaranteed to. And failing to believe in them makes you believe in things that really don't exist, those forces imagines to explain away the appearance of coincidence.
 
The mystical experience I had remains such regardless of whether or not you choose to consider it a "drug induced hallucination" or not.

Would you say that if it's possible to have a mystical experience that is triggered by drugs, it might also be possible to have a drug-induced illusion of a mystical experience?

If no, then the implication is that all psychoactive drug experiences are mystical.

If yes, then how can you tell the difference between the two?
 
Since "chance encounter with someone I hadn't seen in umpteen years- how weird is that?" stories seem to be on-topic for this thread, here's mine:

A few years ago I was at work (I work at two recording studios in Los Angeles) and stepped out onto the patio for a break. Some guy who was part of the session working in our tracking room came out and sat down on the patio.

He looked at me for a minute and asked "What's your name?".

"Mark", says I.

"What's your last name?", he asks.

"De Martini" I growled, slightly miffed that the conversation was getting personal.

He started giving me the "I know you" look. I get that a lot. In ten years of working at Sigma Sound in Philly I met hundreds and hundreds of artists, and unless I did their sessions or they had interesting technical issues to solve I usually don't remember them. "Yo! Ain't you from Philly?" is something I've heard many times since moving to L.A.

I couldn't place the guy so I asked straight out "Who are you?"

"Dan Schwartz" sez he.

He was someone I had gone to school with back in New Jersey and hadn't seen or heard from in over thirty years.

What's funnier is that I had seen his name stenciled on some road cases and since I knew that the Dan I had known had gone to California and become a professional musician I wondered if it was the same person. I asked the assistant on that session what he looked like and rejected the hypothesis on the basis of the description she gave me.

I forgot that just because I have the "keep all your hair until the undertaker gets you" gene, not all of my contemporaries are similarly blessed.

What are the odds of that encounter?

Pretty good, actually. If you work in the recording industry you're highly likely to wind up in L.A., NYC or Nashville because work is available there.

Also, the L.A. recording scene isn't exactly a huge population. My friend was an active session player working mostly on rock records and I happened to have a job at a studio whose live room is very popular with rock artists. Under the circumstances, the chance that we would eventually run into each other was not negligible.

What I did find remarkable was that he was able to see past my long hair and bushy beard to recognize a childhood friend.

And the fact that he had a fortune cookie slip in his pocket which read "Someone from your past will soon happily reenter your life" I can't explain at all, except as part of a plot by the heathen Chinee to mess with my head.;)
 
Ok, so how can you tell if it's a coincidence or not? Rodney?
I think it comes down to the odds of a sequence of events occurring and the effect on the person experiencing the events. For example, in Teapots Happen's case, the odds seem remote and the effect on him was significant.
 
I think it comes down to the odds of a sequence of events occurring and the effect on the person experiencing the events.

I've already shown that unlikely outcomes (or events with low odds) are guaranteed to happen all the time, so we can dismiss that notion. All you have left is "the effect on the person experiencing the event".

So would you agree that the meaning or significance of the event is something dreamed up by the person and not inherent in the events?
 
I think it comes down to the odds of a sequence of events occurring and the effect on the person experiencing the events. For example, in Teapots Happen's case, the odds seem remote and the effect on him was significant.

So if something with ten million to one odds happens to a person who shrugs it off as a coincidence, it is a coincidence, but if someone is profoundly affected by the same ten million to one event it is synchrosity?

This makes it pretty subjective, does it not?

Norm
 
What are the odds of that encounter?

Pretty good, actually.

The same is true of my story like that.

I once took a drive with 3 friends from St. Louis to Hannibal to see a Dylan concert there. We took a scenic route and made some interesting stops on the way, so the trip took most of the day.

When we arrived in Hannibal (I was driving). I parked the car, and as soon as I got out, my youngest brother was walking down the sidewalk right next to the car. It turned out he just happened to be visiting Hannibal with his wife.

I don't know how I'd even begin to calculating the odds against this event. But I would add that since this event wasn't defined ahead of time, I'd have to further define all the possible similar events that would count as being just as "significant or meaningful". For example, I'm one of 10 siblings, so there were 8 other chances of running into a sibling. I've got dozens of nieces, nephews and cousins, and something like 15 aunts and uncles. Then there are in-laws, etc.

(And actually, as I think about it, I never did ask my brother if he really did just happen to be right where I was parking, or maybe he spotted me driving up and walked over to meet me as I got out of the car.)

I'm 48 years old, and I've made probably thousands (maybe tens of thousands?) of trips to nearby towns like that. I lived in Ecuador for 2 years, and never ran into anyone from my home town or even any of the 4 universities I'd attended (much less a family member that happened to be passing through).

It's really a broad net when we don't define what a significant or meaningful event is.
 
So if something with ten million to one odds happens to a person who shrugs it off as a coincidence, it is a coincidence, but if someone is profoundly affected by the same ten million to one event it is synchrosity?

This makes it pretty subjective, does it not?

Well said.

It's more like a game one plays than anything real.
 

Back
Top Bottom