Another Landlord Worry: Is the Elevator Kosher?

[bigjelmapro]

Just as well I'm in the top one percentile then. However, I think you're wrong, and should welcome a citation.

You can think I'm wrong, fine. Have you backed up why you think I'm wrong or what exactly I'm wrong about?

I have no problem with the roots. It's what it means today that matters to me.

Its a day (or two, usually) of rest. What you choose to do with it is obviously up to you. Doesn't take away the meaning for religious groups who do what they believe they should do.

..I'm not familiar with your laws. If they refer to the "Christian day of rest", as you imply, I'm OK with that - a rose by any other name. Indeed, I'd happily go along with legally coining Friday the "Jewish day of rest" and Monday the "Muslim day of rest", if that meant I was forced to stay at home and get paid for the privilege!

Quite a long response stating that you don't know that employers can't force employees to work on their day of rest. Whether they can choose to invoke their rights is up to them. Its already a law, although enforcement is different from state to state, so no need to 'coin' anything.

 

[Southwind17]

You can think I'm wrong, fine. Have you backed up why you think I'm wrong or what exactly I'm wrong about?

Hang on a minute. You've made a seemingly unusual claim. I've challenged the correctness of your claim and asked you to support it. And you think I should justify the challenge! If you're correct you could have demonstrated so in so many words as you've used to be plain awkward instead. I'll draw the obvious logical conclusion from that until such time as you back up your assertion.

Its a day (or two, usually) of rest. What you choose to do with it is obviously up to you. Doesn't take away the meaning for religious groups who do what they believe they should do.

If you think I have a problem with the reason or roots of a day (or two) of rest you haven't been paying attention. Otherwise, your response here makes no sense.

Quite a long response stating that you don't know that employers can't force employees to work on their day of rest.

Whether they can choose to invoke their rights is up to them. Its already a law, although enforcement is different from state to state, so no need to 'coin' anything.

(Is there a smilie somewhere for "mentally imbalanced", I wonder)

 

[Southwind17]

I never thought anyone could feel so strongly about someone taking the stairs on Saturday.

What makes you think that I feel strongly about it? I just think that people who do it for religious reasons are mentally imbalanced, to a degree, that's all. If they choose to behave irrationally one day a week that's entirely up to them.

Well, yes, but not enough to go all Orthodox about it. We're ultra-Reform. We light candles on Friday night, if we remember.

Don't you think that's a little hypocritical - only doing something ritualistic when it occurs to you?

I actually wore a kippah today, but only because it was parent teacher conferences at the kid's (Jewish) school. I try to remember to put one on when I go there. You may not believe it, but they do a great job of teaching critical thinking there.

So what does wearing a kippah signify, in such circumstances, to each of you and the school? Or is it mandatory for parent entry, and you just do it to have your kids in a Jewish school?

 

[Brainache]

So all of these rules about what is Kosher, about things you can't do on a Saturday... Where did they come from?

I see Dr Kitten saying stuff about "God's Rules", but I missed the part where God actually made these rules.

Were they part of the commandments that Moses got?

Some Prophet's vision?

Or was it a case of gradually accumulated man-made rituals from the various tribes eventually becoming traditions, then rules, then God's Law?

And what's with the funny hats ?

 

[AvalonXQ]

So all of these rules about what is Kosher, about things you can't do on a Saturday... Where did they come from?

I see Dr Kitten saying stuff about "God's Rules", but I missed the part where God actually made these rules.

Were they part of the commandments that Moses got?

Some Prophet's vision?

Or was it a case of gradually accumulated man-made rituals from the various tribes eventually becoming traditions, then rules, then God's Law?

From an outsider looking in, my understanding is that these specific regulations came from the best scholars over many, many generations examining and analyzing God's written laws and determining the details -- just as judges, through their decisions, create details doctrines as to how to apply the (usually vague) laws passed by the legislature.
I'll freely admit that, were I Jewish, I would probably both approve of and (as much as possible) engage in this process.
But, as a Christian, I'll admit I have a dog in this fight. We have many examples in the Gospels where Jesus argued quite explicitly that the detailed rules obeyed by the religious leaders of his day regarding the Sabbath and such were NOT from God, and that these leaders' rigid adherence to their own detailed interpretation of the laws wasn't a good thing.

 

[drkitten]

I see Dr Kitten saying stuff about "God's Rules", but I missed the part where God actually made these rules.

That's right, you did. You weren't there. Whippersnapper.

I doubt you were there when the Bill of Rights was signed, either, but you still expect freedom of speech.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I doubt you were there when the Bill of Rights was signed, either, but you still expect freedom of speech.

EXPECT it? Not with this administration in power, I don't.
I still WANT it, though.

 

[Meadmaker]

So all of these rules about what is Kosher, about things you can't do on a Saturday... Where did they come from?

AvalonXq is basically right. Let me add my two cents. They start from the Torah (first five books of the Bible).

Then, they got analyzed over the centuries, where various scholars decided how to apply them to their times and their circumstances. The two most influential sources are the Mishnah and the Talmud, which I believe were finished by about AD 500.

Obviously, the Talmudic scholars didn't anticipate weight sensors in elevators, so as technology changed, they tried to figure out what to do. The differing opinions are in part what led to the different branches of Judaism today.

The Orthodox branch basically believes the laws were sent from God and must be followed rigidly. When something comes up that isn't covered explicitly, they generally say that you must not take any chance that you might possibly break the rules, so they tend to be more expansive in the prohibitions. They refer to this as "building a fence around the Torah".

The Conservative branch basically believes the laws came from God, but maybe not so directly, and that if something comes up that isn't in there, you should think about it a little bit, but unless it's expressly forbidden, you're ok to do it.

The Reform branch basically believes that the laws came from men, although men who were very much spiritually connected with God. They represent a good set of rules for goatherders 3000 years ago, but things have changed, and each person should try to apply the principles of the law in their own lives today.

The apparently strange rules, like pushing elevator buttons, generally come when rabbis get together and discuss things, and then issue their rulings and interpretations, which members of Orthodox communities are expected to follow.

Or was it a case of gradually accumulated man-made rituals from the various tribes eventually becoming traditions, then rules, then God's Law?

Presumably. That was pre-Torah stuff, and is mostly lost in prehistory.

And what's with the funny hats ?

Jews are required to keep their heads covered. The specific style of hat is pure cultural tradition. Religiously, it's ok to wear a yarmulke (kippah), or a baseball hat. Some specific groups have cultural traditions for using particular kinds of clothing or hat.

 

[marksman]

The kippah, by the way, is almost directly analogous to the wearing of a necktie. It's not a commandment to wear a head-covering. It's not in the Torah at all. Basically, some rabbi a dozen centuries ago decided to keep his head covered as a symbol of hiding his naked head from God (who, presumably, hovered over the rabbi). It wasn't meant literally -- simply a way for the rabbi to show that he sought to be respectful to God.

People liked the symbolism and so it caught on, and became a social custom. And then the rabbis argued about when you should and shouldn't wear it and issued decreesand the like, but it's still a custom, not a commandment (much like wearing a necktie in a business situation).

Ironically, the kippah is now probably the most recognized feature of Judaism, even though it isn't actually required of Jews.

 

[Meadmaker]

Don't you think that's a little hypocritical - only doing something ritualistic when it occurs to you?

Not in the least. Why would you think so? If I thought God commanded me to do it, or I chastised people for not doing it, then I guess I could see some sort of hypocrisy charge. As it is, I do it whenever I darned well feel like doing it. If you think there's hypocrisy there, you must be projecting something onto my motivations.

So what does wearing a kippah signify, in such circumstances, to each of you and the school? Or is it mandatory for parent entry, and you just do it to have your kids in a Jewish school?

For the kids, it's mandatory. For me, it's a respect for the customs of the place I'm visiting. They wouldn't throw me out if I didn't wear one, but it's a sign of respect.

 

[Meadmaker]

The kippah, by the way, is almost directly analogous to the wearing of a necktie.

Cool. And only a dozen centuries? So, it isn't even a Talmudic custom?

ETA: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is a custom among both Ashkenazim and Shephardim, isn't it?

 

[Southwind17]

Not in the least. Why would you think so? If I thought God commanded me to do it, or I chastised people for not doing it, then I guess I could see some sort of hypocrisy charge. As it is, I do it whenever I darned well feel like doing it. If you think there's hypocrisy there, you must be projecting something onto my motivations.

It's almost as though you're now denying, or at best conveniently ignoring, the religious "rational" for observing such rituals, that previously you've been so eager to defend and justify. I'm really left wondering now what your real motivations are and how genuine your apparent beliefs are. Again, whether you're a hypocrite.

For the kids, it's mandatory. For me, it's a respect for the customs of the place I'm visiting. They wouldn't throw me out if I didn't wear one, but it's a sign of respect.

Personally, I see it as a sign of disrespect, bordering on mockery, given the religious basis for wearing it, and that is clearly not your motive. It's analogous to wearing a Looney Tunes neck tie! On those rare occasions that I've entered a church to attend a wedding, christening or funeral I've felt such a phoney and couldn't wait to get out.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Personally, I see it as a sign of disrespect, bordering on mockery, given the religious basis for wearing it, and that is clearly not your motive. It's analogous to wearing a Looney Tunes neck tie!

It seems to me that it's analogous to just wearing a necktie. It's a sign of respect whether you believe in the underlying truth of it or not.
Just as my non-Christian friends bow their heads when they eat dinner with my family or come to church with me. I'm not "fooled" that they're actually talking to The Existor, but it's nice that they're willing to make the gesture of respect to those of us who do believe.

 

[Southwind17]

It seems to me that it's analogous to just wearing a necktie. It's a sign of respect whether you believe in the underlying truth of it or not.

So do you think wearing a Looney Tunes tie is a genuine sign of respect for wearing a tie? I see it as a tacit objection, unless its worn by one of those idiots who thinks it's "cool"!

Just as my non-Christian friends bow their heads when they eat dinner with my family or come to church with me. I'm not "fooled" that they're actually talking to The Existor, but it's nice that they're willing to make the gesture of respect to those of us who do believe.

Go to church with you! Why and how often, out of interest? If a friend of mine asked me to accompany them to church I'd respond "With great respect, up yours mate!", or such like.

 

[Toke]

My last time in a church was my uncles wedding.
I dressed up for the occasion, sang along on the psalms, and stood up and sat down at appropriate times. (the bride and several of her family are priests, they know what to do in a church)
To me (and many others) there were no god present, but it was still a wedding ritual with a very real legal and social meaning.

BTW: is the kippah the lacy "hat" covering the back of the head?
I have wondered how bald men keep it on, they can't use hairpins, double adhesive tape can't be good for the skin in the long run.

 

[AvalonXQ]

So do you think wearing a Looney Tunes tie is a genuine sign of respect for wearing a tie? I see it as a tacit objection, unless its worn by one of those idiots who thinks it's "cool"!

A Looney Tunes tie often is seen as sort of a tacit objection, yes. And if someone wore a Looney Tunes kippah, I'd get the same message.
Just wearing a generic tie, or a kippah, or whatnot, is respectful.

Go to church with you! Why and how often, out of interest? If a friend of mine asked me to accompany them to church I'd respond "With great respect, up yours mate!", or such like.

When my friends visit from out of town and stay with us, they usually attend church with us as well. Again, it's a respect thing. And it's not like sitting on a cushioned bench for an hour and listening to a message you disagree with is going to hurt you.

 

[Southwind17]

Just wearing a generic tie, or a kippah, or whatnot, is respectful.

Even if it's worn for the wrong reason?

When my friends visit from out of town and stay with us, they usually attend church with us as well. Again, it's a respect thing. And it's not like sitting on a cushioned bench for an hour and listening to a message you disagree with is going to hurt you.

So if they said to you: "You don't mind if we take a walk in the park for an hour while you go to church do you?" you'd see that as disrespectful, would you?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Even if it's worn for the wrong reason?

Wearing it out of respect isn't a "wrong" reason, just a different one.

So if they said to you: "You don't mind if we take a walk in the park for an hour while you go to church do you?" you'd see that as disrespectful, would you?

I would not. And I would honor their inclination.

 

[Meadmaker]

Personally, I see it as a sign of disrespect, bordering on mockery,

Where did you get that idea?

I mean that as a serious question. You obviously have that idea in your head, and it obviously didn't come from anyone who actually practices the customs in question, because I can't imagine any of them objecting.

So, somewhere along the line, you formed an idea that my gesture of respect is actually disrespect. I'm not saying that's an absurd idea, but it isn't a Jewish idea. Where do you think it came from?

 

[marksman]

Cool. And only a dozen centuries? So, it isn't even a Talmudic custom?

More like 4th century CE. And it is in the Talmud as a story (Mishnah)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is a custom among both Ashkenazim and Shephardim, isn't it?

I'm pretty sure it is. But the Sephardim follow the Talmud too. Actually, I think the custom was first formalized by the Sephardim in the 16th century as a means of distinguishing themselves from Christians. (Muslims wear headdresses too, so Jews in Moorish Spain probably wore headdress as a social custom, having other ways to distinguish themselves from their Muslim neighbors. In Christendom, they then used the head-covering as a way to distinguish themselves from their Christian neighbors, and used the story in the Talmud as textual justification for the practice.)