Rape Statistics

[brodski]

The British Crime Survey defines sexual assault as someone using threats, violence or intimidation to force, or try to force you to do something sexual against your will. They still come up with approximately 1 in 5.

Do you have a link? The 2001 survey comes up with one in 20 women reporting to the survey that they had been raped, and one in 10 reporting a physical sexual assault ("sexual victimisation" in the BCS jargon) . http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r159.pdf

I cannot square these data with the one in five claims.

And to preempt any accusations here, I am not saying that sexual assault is OK, or that there isn't a serious problem with sexual assault and rape (one in 10 is absolutely shocking and disgusting). But if you're going to try and garner attention for a subject by throwing out shocking headline figures you damned well better make sure that your data hold up.

Anyone who saw McShane on Newsnight the other night will know why.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Apologies, I misremembered and when I checked, I got the same as you. i thought I had edited quick enough.

ETA: I was remembering figures from the 2004/05 report, giving the figure of 17% (2000) and 23% (2004) for "any sexual assault since age of 16" which includes more minor events, like indecent exposure I think.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/rdsolr1206.pdf

 

[bluesjnr]

But if you're going to try and garner attention for a subject by throwing out shocking headline figures you damned well better make sure that your data hold up.

Is this aimed at me - if so did you read my OP? Did you read this post? If not then I'll shut up!

BTW - Found the conference reference - I forgot that I had edited out the citations.

 

[brodski]

Brodski

You misunderstand my intent. I am not here to back up any claimed figures. I presented them and stated that I was surprised. I want to stimulate discussion.

Surly you have succeeded in provoking discussion with me, specifically on whether the data in your OP are robust?

You will get no debate with me about sexual assault being a terrible crime, and that there is too much of it (any is too much), but if you feel that the accuracy of the data is irrelevant, why bring these reports up?


back to the issue of the one in five claim:
If you follow footnote 15 and google the paper, you get to here http://www.unfpa.org/upload/lib_pub_file/493_filename_en_swp05.pdf which repeats the claim giving the source as "UN Millennium Project. 2005a. Taking
Action: Achieving Gender Equality and
Empowering Women. Task Force on
Education and Gender Equality. London
and Sterling, Virginia: Earthscan." when I googled that I got to here
http://www.unmillenniumproject.org/documents/Gender-complete.pdf

you want pp113 to see the claim repeated, the reference it gives appears to trace back to 1997 WHO conference proceedings which don't seem to be online.

This seems to be a stat that gets pass on and on and each publication references the one before rather than linking back to something which gives the actual data- I find this both annoying and suspicious.

 

[brodski]

Is this aimed at me - if so did you read my OP? Did you read this post? If not then I'll shut up!

BTW - Found the conference reference - I forgot that I had edited out the citations.

It wasn't aimed at thee (I was using you in as a plural, I dislike using "one") and I hadn't read it by the time I had posted the comment you quoted, I have responded above though.

have you actually found the conference proceedings? I'd love a link to them, or did you just get stuck in the link trail like I did?

 

[Niggle]

Define "rape."

Define "attempted rape."

Identify yourself as male or female.

To the teenaged boy doing it, "copping a feel" is harmless. To the teenaged girl he's doing it to, it's attempted rape, especially since she has no way of knowing how far he intends to go and has already had it rudely proven to her that she can't stop him.

 

[brodski]

Define "rape."

Define "attempted rape."

Identify yourself as male or female.

To the teenaged boy doing it, "copping a feel" is harmless. To the teenaged girl he's doing it to, it's attempted rape, especially since she has no way of knowing how far he intends to go and has already had it rudely proven to her that she can't stop him.

I don't see that as a methodological flaw of either the BCS or the Geneva study given the structure and wording of the questions- it may be a problem with the WHO one in five figure- but as we can't see what they mean by either rape or attempted rape, or even when or how their data was collected, this is the least of the problems.

 

[ejk]

Anybody else think zero tolerance is a stupid policy?

Yeah... Any form of ass-grabbing is considered sexual assault at least in the Armed Forces. I suppose that's fairly common but I still think it's an awfully big leap to go from a slap on the ass to full on rape.

Agreed it's about definitions, but I think it's possible to say that ass-grabbing is unacceptable, even legally actionable, without saying it's the same as rape.

 

[bluesjnr]

Surly you have succeeded in provoking discussion with me, specifically on whether the data in your OP are robust?

That is exactly why I posted it, because I was surprised. I stated this in my OP. I wanted others opinions. You've been attempting to correct me from the first line of your first post. You seemed to be trying to pick a fight, I felt that you were determined that I was passing these figures off as accurate; something I have never claimed.

if you feel that the accuracy of the data is irrelevant, why bring these reports up?

Because I'm staggered at the claimed figures. I felt them worthy of discussion.

back to the issue of the one in five claim

Thank you. I did realise (see earlier post above) that I had removed citation numbers in the quote and managed to cancel out that part of my stupidity and followed the trail to a dead end so to speak. I attempted an edit but alas too late.

This seems to be a stat that gets pass on and on and each publication references the one before rather than linking back to something which gives the actual data- I find this both annoying and suspicious.

Yes, I agree because this is the stat central to my surprise in the first place. It was quoted along with the 1 in 3 in the e-mail I originally received. I cannot trace any referenced study to prove it's veracity.

It is possible that this thread is not what you expected in terms of skeptical debate. I have tried, more than once, to clarify my intentions.

 

[brodski]

That is exactly why I posted it, because I was surprised. I stated this in my OP. I wanted others opinions. You've been attempting to correct me from the first line of your first post. You seemed to be trying to pick a fight, I felt that you were determined that I was passing these figures off as accurate; something I have never claimed.

I'm sorry if I have come off that way I don't intend too. I would like a discussion, not an argument- I am trying to pick apart and assess the accuracy of the reports you linked too- I'm not trying to blame you for any faults which there may be in those reports. I realise that my language hasn't been fantastic for differentiating between my criticism of the report and criticism of you personally. I apologise.

I may be coming across as slightly defensive but that's only because I've seen the reaction that these sorts of discussions can generate towards those that challenge these sorts of figures.

 

[bluesjnr]

Thanks, seems like we're both on the same page with the same concerns.

 

[brodski]

Thanks, seems like we're both on the same page with the same concerns.

Sorry, do you have a source for that claim

 

[Bikewer]

I have commented on the "one in four" or "one in five" figure before. Here at the university, we have posters proudly displayed by a men's group that "Stands Strong Against Rape!" The "one in four" statistic is prominent.

I tossed together some figures based on our about-50% female student body and concluded that we should be getting some hundreds of rapes per year, and even at the lowest reporting percentage commonly cited, at least some dozen or more actually reported per year.
Yet we have had exactly none for some some years now.
That's as in....None.
The last report we had was perhaps 5 years ago and was a "date rape" situation; the girl claimed the guy got her drunk and had his way with her. The guy claimed they had mutually gotten drunk and had consensual sex. There was no prosecution.

I have speculated that the only way the "one in four" statistic could be made to work was if you accepted the definition of rape as "consensual sex about which you had regrets later."
This has actually been put forward by some of the more radical women's groups......

 

[bluesjnr]

Define "rape."

Define "attempted rape."

Identify yourself as male or female. {edit}Ever heard of the word PLEASE?

Niggle, I'm male and I'm interested in why you require that information. Below (in bold) is how I would define rape. I guess attempted rape would be attempting to have non consensual penetrative sex and being thwarted by any means.

Thanks for your opinions up to this point. I'm still confused as some of you seem to be saying that the figures may be skewed by sexual assault reports and not actual rape. I'm assuming that rape for the current respondents means non consensual penetrative sex

 

[bluesjnr]

I have commented on the "one in four" or "one in five" figure before. Here at the university, we have posters proudly displayed by a men's group that "Stands Strong Against Rape!" The "one in four" statistic is prominent.

I tossed together some figures based on our about-50% female student body and concluded that we should be getting some hundreds of rapes per year, and even at the lowest reporting percentage commonly cited, at least some dozen or more actually reported per year.
Yet we have had exactly none for some some years now.
That's as in....None.
The last report we had was perhaps 5 years ago and was a "date rape" situation; the girl claimed the guy got her drunk and had his way with her. The guy claimed they had mutually gotten drunk and had consensual sex. There was no prosecution.

I have speculated that the only way the "one in four" statistic could be made to work was if you accepted the definition of rape as "consensual sex about which you had regrets later."
This has actually been put forward by some of the more radical women's groups......

I think that is why I was surprised. I have easily over 50 female acquaintances that I could say would have no issues with discussing things like this with me, yet as far as I know none have been raped nor have they been a victim of attempted rape. According to the 1 in 5 rule their should have been 10 - surely I'd have heard of at least one of those.

 

[casebro]

Interpreting a couple stats in the OP, we see that 20% of under-16 y.o. got groped, while only 10% of 'women' did. Sounds like most of the sexual assaults are performed by teen aged boys, who don't yet know the limits. Teaching boys some manners would go a long way towards lowering the rate.

I don't think my sex education class taught me this one good rule:
No touching intimate places until there is mutual kissing going on.

But at that time, sex ed classes covered biology and prevention, and were proscribed from "teaching you how". I guess when/when not to falls into that category.

So "Boy Scouts, Girl Guides" had to be learned by trial and error, which I believe would cover the majority of the teen statistics.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Brodski,

If you read the first line of the quote I provided in the OP you will see it relates to rape or attempted rape only. So it is 1 in 5 women according to the report. This claims that 20% of the worlds female population has been raped or the victim of attempted rape.

The definition of rape in some of those studies, however, (at least back in the 90s) expands the definition to include behavior not traditionally defined as rape. I suspect some researchers -- or pressure groups -- want a shocking number so that people pay more attention. IMO, they shoot themselves in the foot with that tactic.

After tracking down a few studies back in the 90s and finding the definitions skewed beyond reason, I remain wary of any cited numbers without looking at the whole study. These may be perfectly accurate, I cannot say until I have more time. But the earlier statistics abuses have made me wary of being burned again.

 

[Sunray Breaker]

17 per cent of respondents said yes, while 51 per cent agreed there was some likelihood that they would, but only - and this is key - if they could be sure they would get away with it. The results of this study, and many others like it, should have been enough to make us seriously reconsider our view of rape.

That is quite the disturbing figure...And causes me to reconsider my view of rape. What's important for people to study is the type of elements that cause these sort of thoughts to manifest.

Is it exposure to extreme sexual acts on video?

Is it growing up in a alpha male dominated household?

Is it from sexual abuse they themselves experienced?

Is it from bullyiong or being bullied?

These are the questions that need to be answered for us to better understand and either safely accommodate these thoughts (via extreme, consensual porn) or find ways of eliminating the elements that promote these ideas.

That's just my very uneducated opinion on the matter.

 

[Information Analyst]

Casebro & IA you both seem to be making a similar claim that what you deem to be harmless actions get reported thus skewing the figures.

It's certainly true that on occasions when I've read reports of such high percentages of "sexual assault," on closer inspection - where possible - the published criteria made it clear that the definition used would be what I consider to be ridiculously wide.

 

[Bikewer]

legally, these terms are defined in excruciating detail. "Rape" involves penetration.