How do you guys explain really bizarre cases of synchronicity?

So I guess if someone throws 20 sixes in a row you won't question whether the dice is fair.

I would. But then I'd answer that question by continuing to throw the dice. If I didn't continue to throw sixes, then I'd assume that the first 20 were just a coincidence.
 
I had a mystical experience.

If you’re not familiar with the term, dig into it some before reading on (just google “mystical experience” – or even seek out the essay titled “Can an Atheist Have a Religious Experience“) – it is a specific kind of experience that happens in similar ways across times and cultures, although the means of getting there and the modes of interpreting the experience vary considerably.

For me, the means of getting there involved a small dose of LSD and a 10-mile nature hike in some of the most stunning scenery in the United States.

Yes, I was ‘on drugs’ when I experienced the “oneness of all things” and became convinced that that “everything was good/god.”

Interesting story, and well told. You are free to interpret it as a "mystical experience" if you like; to me it is a fine example of how the human brain has evolved to perceive patterns to such an extent that we are able, with relatively little effort, to impose them on practically any series of unrelated events, if we are so inclined.

I too, have some <ahem> experience with hallucinogenic substances. In less responsible, more carefree days I liked nothing better than to drop acid on a nice, sunny summer day and go on a nature hike. I am familiar with the feeling under such conditions that "everything is good". One of the most consistent effects of said substance on me is that it tends to make everything look just a little bit brighter, smell just a little bit sweeter, sound just a little more interesting, etc. Indeed, one of the typical after-effects is that my face would be sore for the next day, from having been smiling so much during the trip.

On one occasion I began my experience sitting on the steps in front of my house, gazing at the unmowed lawn, when suddenly all of the dandelions became snakes. (I count myself fortunate that I happen to like snakes, and used to keep them as pets when I was a kid.) The illusion was very real, and lasted for quite a long time. It was rather like watching a movie that had gradually morphed into a sort of virtual reality experience and back again. Yet at no time during the experience did I ever think that what I was experiencing was anything other than a drug-induced illusion.

Never have I felt the need to invoke god, or synchronicity, or hyperdimensionality, or Ram Dass to explain or give meaning to my experience. The action of lysergic acid diethylamide on my central nervous system furnished more than sufficient explanation, and indeed I repeated the experience several times on subsequent occasions. And I do sometimes reflect on the experience even now, whilst mowing the lawn, though it's been some years since I last indulged in swallowing those little pieces of paper.

Just this past August I went out to my car, which had been locked with the windows rolled up, and parked in the middle of an asphalt parking lot all day, and when I opened the door I found two sizable garter snakes sitting on the floor mat in front of the brake pedal. Were I so inclined, I could make a much longer and more entertaining story of this, involving synchronicity.

But instead, I removed the snakes, drove home, and had a beer. ;)
 
Part of the problem is that the brain can easily play these tricks on you. In one experiment ...

Yes, I am aware of this kind of thing, which is why I am glad I had witnesses (skeptical ones in some cases) each step of the way. Your interpretation of the events may vary from mine, but I am confident that they took place as I presented them.
 
The story about the three men on the train with similar names reminded me of another story...

When I was about 10, I was at a local playground with a friend of mine. We were just hanging around and chatting, and this neighbourhood boy came close and started mimicking us and just being a general pain in the butt.

After ignoring him for a while, we decided to shut him up by sending some insults his way. At one point, I said, "Who do you think you are, anyways? Bob Barker?" (I don't remember why I said this)

The kid's eyes got really wide, and he said "How did you know my last name?" He turned and left the park, looking back over his shoulder every once in a while.
 
Interesting story, and well told. You are free to interpret it as a "mystical experience" if you like; to me it is a fine example of how the human brain has evolved to perceive patterns to such an extent that we are able, with relatively little effort, to impose them on practically any series of unrelated events, if we are so inclined.

Thanks ... but are you saying that you do not see a pattern in these events? That the two teapots were not related, or that my decision to follow intuition didn't lead me to buy the first one? Because I can assure you that was indeed the case ...

Yet at no time during the (LSD) experience did I ever think that what I was experiencing was anything other than a drug-induced illusion.

Never have I felt the need to invoke god, or synchronicity, or hyperdimensionality, or Ram Dass to explain or give meaning to my experience.

The action of lysergic acid diethylamide on my central nervous system furnished more than sufficient explanation, and indeed I repeated the experience several times on subsequent occasions.

Your response confuses me.

I did not hallucinate the teapots while on LSD - I had a 'mystical experience' (not merely a happy one - please look up the term since I cannot add links to posts), which left me with the notion that the world was profoundly interconnected and essentially magical - and that in such a reality, intuition was a useful guide that I should learn to pay attention to.

This led directly to me 1) buying the teapot and 2) buying my house. (not on acid in either case)

Perhaps I am missing/misunderstanding your point(s) though?
 
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You probably watched Happy Gilmore the night before.

Probably not :) I was a lot older than 10 when that movie came out.

I think it was because I watched a lot of The Price Is Right when I went home for lunch.
 
No. Now answer my question.
Why not? It's less than a 1 in 2.5 million chance to get that exact hand. Why is that 5 card sequence not an example of a significant coincidence or synchronicity? (In other words, claiming a result is significant because that result is extremely low probability is meaningless.)

With the die rolling thing, the idea was that if you throw a fair die 20 times you're equally likely to get ANY combination of 20 results. If you don't say ahead of time what constitutes a significant coincidence or synchronicity, then claiming the odds against a particular result is meaningless.

For example, would you find a result of HTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHT to be a significant coincidence? Or HHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTT? Or HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHT? Or TTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHH? Or TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTH? Or HHHHHHHHHTTHHHHHHHHH?

It's just the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You can take any result after the fact and claim it was improbable even though the probability of getting "any result" was 1:1.
 
Thanks ... but are you saying that you do not see a pattern in these events? That the two teapots were not related, or that my decision to follow intuition didn't lead me to buy the first one? Because I can assure you that was indeed the case ...



Your response confuses me.

I did not hallucinate the teapots while on LSD - I had a 'mystical experience' (not merely a happy one - please look up the term since I cannot add links to posts), which left me with the notion that the world was profoundly interconnected and essentially magical - and that in such a reality, intuition was a useful guide that I should learn to pay attention to.

This led directly to me 1) buying the teapot and 2) buying my house. (not on acid in either case)

Perhaps I am missing/misunderstanding your point(s) though?

The point is that you had your mystical experience on drugs. It could have been attached to anything, (such as the experience Dr. H had with snakes) but just so happened to settle upon that teapot. You were bound to see another teapot in your life, just like Dr H was bound to see snakes again, whether it was a day, a year or a decade after the 'mystical experience'.

The difference is that you put a lot of significance seeing on the same thing you were fixated on during your experience, and Dr H does not. He realizes that snakes are common, and you are bound to see them again. You should realize the same thing about teapots.
 
Thanks ... but are you saying that you do not see a pattern in these events? That the two teapots were not related, or that my decision to follow intuition didn't lead me to buy the first one? Because I can assure you that was indeed the case ...

I can accept that there is a coincidence here, and I accept your story at face value, simply because wierd things happen. But am wondering what the significance of this is, apart from the fact that you now own two identical teapots albeit obtained in extremely odd circumstances.

If there is synchrosity out there, or something causing this (call it intuition if you like), I really think that an outcome of owning two identical teapots is pretty much a waste of an unknown force. It seems, well, petty.

I am just wondering if you see any more in this than the fact that you own two identical teapots? Do you consider that one day they may have a further affect on your life, or that you are now going to try to obtain evidence that will hold up in a peer reviewed journal that your hypothesis is true?

I am saying this badly, so I apologise. Most simply put, how has having two identical teapots changed your day to day existance and (I hate to put it this way) your "purpose in life"?

Norm
 
The point is that you had your mystical experience on drugs. It could have been attached to anything, (such as the experience Dr. H had with snakes) but just so happened to settle upon that teapot. You were bound to see another teapot in your life, just like Dr H was bound to see snakes again, whether it was a day, a year or a decade after the 'mystical experience'.

The difference is that you put a lot of significance seeing on the same thing you were fixated on during your experience, and Dr H does not. He realizes that snakes are common, and you are bound to see them again. You should realize the same thing about teapots.

I don't think you really understand what I wrote, perhaps it was my fault in how I wrote it.

Yes, I had my mystical experience on drugs. But I did not see a teapot while on drugs - I came across it later, amidst a sea of other random objects. Then I was compelled to buy it because my intuition was set abuzz by it, and the mystical experience had inclined me to pay attention to intuition. Also, it was not any old teapot - it was one identical to the one that was buried under my house, unbeknownst to me.

Timeline:

01/15/2006 mystical experience

01/22/2006 teapot 1 bought

01/30/2006 teapot 2 found​

hmm, I guess overall I don't think your line of objection carries much weight.


But am wondering what the significance of this is, apart from the fact that you now own two identical teapots albeit obtained in extremely odd circumstances.

If there is synchrosity out there, or something causing this (call it intuition if you like), I really think that an outcome of owning two identical teapots is pretty much a waste of an unknown force. It seems, well, petty.

I am just wondering if you see any more in this than the fact that you own two identical teapots? Do you consider that one day they may have a further affect on your life, or that you are now going to try to obtain evidence that will hold up in a peer reviewed journal that your hypothesis is true?

I am saying this badly, so I apologise. Most simply put, how has having two identical teapots changed your day to day existance and (I hate to put it this way) your "purpose in life"?

Thanks for asking - because it WAS a very meaningful experience for me. it solidified my fragile, nascent belief in a universe that is 'indistinguishable from magical,' in which intuition can be a useful, and even rational guide to follow.

The teapots were an anchor that helped me make a very difficult paradigm shift, away from my deeply-entrenched reductionist, fundamentalist rationalism. Without such concrete 'evidence' in favor of the perspective that I'd found while on acid, it is almost certain that I would have quickly slid back into my previous outlook, in which everything was meaningless, and all coincidences were "mere."

Now when a coincidence happens - I notice. I laugh out loud, with deep, genuine pleasure - because it seems like maybe, just maybe - the universe is winking at me, and laughing along. And it feels good to laugh like that ... much, much better than the cynical snickering that I'd specialized in before.

Even without holding any specific beliefs, even though still an atheist ... being open to the possibility of meaningfulness in this world really is a gift that I am grateful for.

<ugh there's much more to be said than that I guess, but that's the gist of it and I gotta stop typing before my GF beats me.>
 
So do you consider this experience a one-time thing? Or do events like this happen all the time, and we ignore the signs? If it is something you expect to happen in the future, would you consider keeping a more detailed journal? Preferably someplace online where dates can be confirmed. You have to remember that most of us are constrained by our rationalist mindset, and so this may be the only way to help us see the light. It would be a bit selfish to be given the gift of revelation and keep it to yourself.
 
I haven't really followed the Mystical Teapot conversation but the following makes me ask a question of Teapots Happen:

The point is that you had your mystical experience on drugs.


How would you distinguish a drug-induced hallucination from a mystical experience?
 
Why not? It's less than a 1 in 2.5 million chance to get that exact hand. Why is that 5 card sequence not an example of a significant coincidence or synchronicity? (In other words, claiming a result is significant because that result is extremely low probability is meaningless.)

With the die rolling thing, the idea was that if you throw a fair die 20 times you're equally likely to get ANY combination of 20 results. If you don't say ahead of time what constitutes a significant coincidence or synchronicity, then claiming the odds against a particular result is meaningless.

For example, would you find a result of HTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHT to be a significant coincidence? Or HHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTT? Or HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHT? Or TTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHH? Or TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTH? Or HHHHHHHHHTTHHHHHHHHH?

It's just the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You can take any result after the fact and claim it was improbable even though the probability of getting "any result" was 1:1.
I've already been through this, but let's simplify: If you flip a coin 10 times, it would be surprising if you didn't obtain at least 2 heads and tails. The odds of getting all heads or tails, or even nine heads or tails, is slim, as the probability of a 10-0 mix or a 9-1 mix totals only 2.15%. In your world, though, a 10-0 mix or a 9-1 mix wouldn't faze you. In fact, you evidently wouldn't be fazed by a coin being flipped 1000 times with a 1000-0 or 999-1 mix. So again, I ask, how would you ever test the hypothesis that there is such a thing as synchronicity?
 
. And it feels good to laugh like that ... much, much better than the cynical snickering that I'd specialized in before.
You've probably already discovered that most folks here find it much, much better to cynically snicker. ;) I am curious about one thing, though: How do you reconcile your atheism with your belief that the universe has meaning?
 
You've probably already discovered that most folks here find it much, much better to cynically snicker. ;) I am curious about one thing, though: How do you reconcile your atheism with your belief that the universe has meaning?

Well, to be fair-- or to play devil's advocate, or to point out at least one logical meaning of the argument, or to do something-- I don't really see why there would be anything to reconcile. For instance, we were discussing a situation at the long-term care facility where I work (over in a religion & philosophy thread.) Every day, I work with a resident who spends several hours sitting in the secured hall of the Alzheimer's wing and saying variations on "Help me." But it doesn't do a lot of good to ask her what she needs, because she'll reply with "I don't understand you because I don't have good sense anymore", "My ears don't work right", or "You know my needs better than I do." She has receptive aphasia, so she's able to make statements that sound very coherent, but she doesn't understand the meaning of what's said to her. She definitely doesn't understand philosophical arguments-- she doesn't really even get the meaning of statements like "It's time to eat dinner now." I don't know what religion she once was, but she doesn't know what a religion is now. But when I sit with her and hold her hand, she understands something that cannot be expressed in words. There is meaning for her.

One of the great tragedies of advancing Alzheimer's disease is that people lose the ability to make meaning, and that they know they're losing it. When they can find meaning for even brief amounts of time, it tends to come through closeness with other human beings. And it really doesn't matter if these people are Southern Baptists or Mormons or atheists or Satan worshippers. (Witnessing several residents with severe receptive aphasia all attempting to talk to each other with nobody understanding a single word anybody else is saying-- and yet somehow communicating-- is the best way to begin to understand this.) To make meaning and to share meaning with others is what defines us as human beings, not as theists or atheists. Another resident on the non-secured wing is on hospice, and she's actively dying right now... she's chosen not to eat, and I think she has an advance directive, so she probably won't get a feeding tube... I don't know if she'll even last the week... when she looks up at the ceiling, I wonder what she sees. All I can say is that I think-- I hope-- that she has made meaning for herself.

When all is said and done, I think what it comes down to is that something changes after working with people like this. I think that to ask whether anybody believes that the universe has meaning is somewhere between weird and irrelevant and a mental-game-playing waste of time. Every day, we make that meaning ourselves.
 
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What Third Eye said:

So, to summarize:

You took some acid, bought a teapot, found the same model teapot in your attic, and now believe in magic.

The point is that you had your mystical experience on drugs. It could have been attached to anything, (such as the experience Dr. H had with snakes) but just so happened to settle upon that teapot. You were bound to see another teapot in your life, just like Dr H was bound to see snakes again, whether it was a day, a year or a decade after the 'mystical experience'.

The difference is that you put a lot of significance seeing on the same thing you were fixated on during your experience, and Dr H does not. He realizes that snakes are common, and you are bound to see them again. You should realize the same thing about teapots.

Especially when you've been shown in this thread that there are two exactly like it currently for sale on e-Bay.

hmm, I guess overall I don't think your line of objection carries much weight.

That's okay, because overall I think your story is silly.

Have you ever seen Bill Cosby's bit about somebody high on pot describing somebody else making a hamburger? He could do the same bit with your story.

I once saw an antique ring for sale at a craft fair. I wanted to buy it but had to watch my finances pretty carefully that month.

A few months later I saw the same dealer at another craft fair. OMG!!! The same dealer showed up at a craft fair in the same area as before and still had the very same ring in stock!!!!!!1!!!1

And...here's the truly weird part...I had enough money, so I BOUGHT IT!!!! And I wasn't high on anything, nor had I been!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well, to be fair-- or to play devil's advocate, or to point out at least one logical meaning of the argument, or to do something-- I don't really see why there would be anything to reconcile. For instance, we were discussing a situation at the long-term care facility where I work (over in a religion & philosophy thread.) Every day, I work with a resident who spends several hours sitting in the secured hall of the Alzheimer's wing and saying variations on "Help me." But it doesn't do a lot of good to ask her what she needs, because she'll reply with "I don't understand you because I don't have good sense anymore", "My ears don't work right", or "You know my needs better than I do." She has receptive aphasia, so she's able to make statements that sound very coherent, but she doesn't understand the meaning of what's said to her. She definitely doesn't understand philosophical arguments-- she doesn't really even get the meaning of statements like "It's time to eat dinner now." I don't know what religion she once was, but she doesn't know what a religion is now. But when I sit with her and hold her hand, she understands something that cannot be expressed in words. There is meaning for her.

One of the great tragedies of advancing Alzheimer's disease is that people lose the ability to make meaning, and that they know they're losing it. When they can find meaning for even brief amounts of time, it tends to come through closeness with other human beings. And it really doesn't matter if these people are Southern Baptists or Mormons or atheists or Satan worshippers. (Witnessing several residents with severe receptive aphasia all attempting to talk to each other with nobody understanding a single word anybody else is saying-- and yet somehow communicating-- is the best way to begin to understand this.) To make meaning and to share meaning with others is what defines us as human beings, not as theists or atheists. Another resident on the non-secured wing is on hospice, and she's actively dying right now... she's chosen not to eat, and I think she has an advance directive, so she probably won't get a feeding tube... I don't know if she'll even last the week... when she looks up at the ceiling, I wonder what she sees. All I can say is that I think-- I hope-- that she has made meaning for herself.

When all is said and done, I think what it comes down to is that something changes after working with people like this. I think that to ask whether anybody believes that the universe has meaning is somewhere between weird and irrelevant and a mental-game-playing waste of time. Every day, we make that meaning ourselves.

Making meaning is a far cry from that meaning being 'out there', independant of our experience/cognition, however. Humans do conjure meaning and recognize patterns. We're wired to do so as a result of evolution. Recognizing this is at the heart of skepticism. I'm sorry to say it, but everything about TH's story leads me to the conclusion that he has merely abandoned some part of whatever rationality he may have once had.
 

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