Obama and the Gay Military...

[ponderingturtle]

It isn't like a job. You cannot equate the civilian world to the military world. A company that forced everyone, men or women, straight or gay to shower together would probably buckle under law suits.

Funny, I went to a summer camp that was just like that. No lawsuits in sight either.

 

[Bill Thompson]

No that is transexuals, gay men are distinct from transexuals and the comparison shows your ignorance.

Cher's kid considered herself a lesbian until she decided to have an operation and become a man. No two people have the exact same situation and you cannot say they are distinctly different.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Funny a cultural and social more is now some Law of Nature.

I really find crapping to be the heigth of sexual behavior.

So really, you are attracted to women who are pooping? That is just gross.

No, I a not a fecophiliac. So what are you saying? Since it is gross and not sexy, men and women should have co-ed restrooms. Fine. So why don't we?

And eventhough I am not a fecophiliac, why would that be less gross than two dudes having anal sex? Are you cool with one thing and not cool with something else. Why? How is it you can set the bar with what is gross and what is not?

 

[MikeMangum]

You are in error, sir, per the United States Constitution. This is why President Clinton ran into a buzz saw when he tried this. He didn't first drum up enough Congressional support, which had he done, the JCS testimony would have been laughed at in Congress: the Generals and Admirals there testifying would have had to say "yessir/ma'am, Senators" or resign.

Congress didn't. They chose to do that balance of powers thing.

From Article I Section VIII, powers of Congress:


DR

Actually, I believe you are wrong. Until the status of gays in the military became a legislated issue, the President could have issued an executive order to allow gays in the military. Just like Truman and Executive Order 9981. An executive order wouldn't have been able to change the UCMJ (I don't believe), so anyone caught actually engaging in sodomy would still have been liable for discharge, but merely being gay is not enough to violate the UCMJ. Of course, being that the DOD is part of the Executive branch, and that law enforcement in general is an Executive branch function, the head of the Executive branch can decide, using prosecutorial discretion, not to prosecute specific breaches of law. Just like Obama has done with marijuana.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Funny, I went to a summer camp that was just like that. No lawsuits in sight either.

Really? How old were you? Give me some details.

 

[Nosi]

You're right, it was Arcade22 who seemed to have a problem with turbans.


This story?

That's the pair I was talking about. Thanks

 

[ponderingturtle]

Cher's kid considered herself a lesbian until she decided to have an operation and become a man. No two people have the exact same situation and you cannot say they are distinctly different.

So what? We are not talking about transexuals or transgendered people we are talking about homosexuals. There are very clear definitions, and I don't think that the gay man to transexual is anywhere near as common as lesbian to transexual.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, I a not a fecophiliac. So what are you saying? Since it is gross and not sexy, men and women should have co-ed restrooms. Fine. So why don't we?

And eventhough I am not a fecophiliac,

coprophiliac

Learn proper terms not made up south park terms.

why would that be less gross than two dudes having anal sex?

What about a man and a woman having anal sex? That is getting to be very common, hell I think more men get analy penetrated by their wives/girlfriends than by their boyfriends/gay lovers.

Anal sex is not a great taboo in america anymore.

Of course lets not forget the true horror, something that is also sodomy in most cases, oral sex. How gross and perverted is that act? You should also know that gay =/= anal sex. There are plenty of gay men who don't practice it.

 

[Bill Thompson]

No that is transexuals, gay men are distinct from transexuals and the comparison shows your ignorance.

Not with some of my gay friends. Some look and act exactly like women no matter what they do. And they do not consider themselves to be women and would never get an operation.

Come to think of it, if everthing else was the same and I had been born a woman, I would probably consider myself a lesbian and not a man trapped in a woman's body.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Really? How old were you? Give me some details.

It was a camp for 15 to 17 year olds, most people swam naked and the shower only had 1 wall. It is you who is making a big deal about this. Also shower issues were covered a lot in a thread a few months back.

see link for many many pages on shower issues with regards to transexuals.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not with some of my gay friends. Some look and act exactly like women no matter what they do. And they do not consider themselves to be women and would never get an operation.

Hence they are not transexual. You are confusing being effeminate with being gay and with being transexual. Just like there are some masculine heterosexual women as well as masculine homosexual women. Neither of those makes them transexual.

 

[Bill Thompson]

coprophiliac

Learn proper terms not made up south park terms.

No.

I won't.

I don't wanna.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

We were all showering in the locker room and then this dude comes prancing in.

Limp wristed too huh?

I was definitely uncomfortable, but I was not going to worry about it. Then next thing you know, the guy is facing away from everyone in the corner shower with an erection. I grabbed my stuff and got the hell out of there. To be honest, I felt a little violated by this guy. So no, I do not agree with gays being in the military not only for the group shower thing, but also because it would break up unit integrity.

I know everyone is gonna jump all over my case for that stance, but its how I feel.

Seriously, who gives a **** (If you are secure in your sexuality that is..)? Aren't you supposed to be able to stare down the barrel of Al Qaeda? If you can't bear the sight of a stiff knob, then you shouldn't be placed in terrifying situations on the front lines.

Let me ask you a question: When your brilliant army mate tells you a story about him getting an erection talking to a female officer (and she saw it), do you laugh and move on, or do you furrow your brow and demand he gets discharged?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Let me ask you a question: When your brilliant army mate tells you a story about him getting an erection talking to a female officer (and she saw it), do you laugh and move on, or do you furrow your brow and demand he gets discharged?

Huh? Is this in a condition where his mate is in the shower with a female officer? If not, and all that is happening is a bit of "come to attention" then there isn't much to discuss, is there?

DR

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I'm sure Bill or Quad would indeed support having such a gay officer discharged if they recounted a story of getting an erection around another man (regardless of the setting), rather than laughing it off.

 

[MikeMangum]

No that is transexuals, gay men are distinct from transexuals and the comparison shows your ignorance.

Well, to some extent yes, and to some extent no.

ETA: wanted to clarify that it was about the response to the "chicks with dicks" line, not transexuals. Gay men can't be simplified as "chicks with dicks", but they are closer in brain activity to heterosexual women in some ways than to hetero males and lesbians. Things rarely fall into a simple yes | no answer.

 

[Quad4_72]

Limp wristed too huh?



Seriously, who gives a **** (If you are secure in your sexuality that is..)? Aren't you supposed to be able to stare down the barrel of Al Qaeda? If you can't bear the sight of a stiff knob, then you shouldn't be placed in terrifying situations on the front lines.

Let me ask you a question: When your brilliant army mate tells you a story about him getting an erection talking to a female officer (and she saw it), do you laugh and move on, or do you furrow your brow and demand he gets discharged?

Facing the enemy and not liking a dude getting a wood looking at you are completely different things. Good try though. And your question is a bit ridiculous. Hell by your logic, guys should be allowed to shower with girls too then right? I mean if it is ok for a gay dude to go in to a group shower of all males then the same should be true for straight males going into female showers correct?

 

[Quad4_72]

A good argument for having curtains or doors on the shower stalls (as there are, now, in place).

No, there aren't. In some places in the military there are, but from my experiences most basic training barracks are group showers.

Also, another good argument for having policy against walking around berthing with no clothes on (also in place).

Not in place actually.

Also, an excellent argument for having sexual harassment policies (also in place). Please don't take this as belittling your opinion or experience, because I'm not trying to do that at all. I'm just saying that there are practical ways to afford people with privacy, and to address other people violating that privacy, and that most of them are already in place.

Yes there are practical ways to give more privacy, but this should not have to be done just to accommodate homosexuals.

But how do you know he was reacting to you?

I don't know if it was me specifically, but thats not really the point. He was reacting to someone, or everyone in the shower. Doesn't change how I felt about the situation. Would you be comfortable showering next to a man?

Quad4, gays are already in the military. DADT does not prohibit gays from serving in the military. In those instances in which there are group showers, there are already gays showering with straights. I'm assuming that you're saying that knowing that another person is gay would break up unit integrity, and thusly what you're actually against is gays serving openly (please correct me if I'm wrong; I absolutely do not want to be putting words in your mouth).

Yes I am against openly gays serving in the military. I am uncomfortable with any gays in general serving in the military though. Trust me, I am well aware there are gays in the military now.

Please be advised that the same argument has been used against integrating blacks and women in the military. Vociferously. And yet, here we are, people from multiple ethnic backgrounds, of both genders, generally serving together pretty well. What is your source for your assertion that integrating gays would completely upset the military's ability to accomplish its missions?

Being black or being a woman is completely different than being gay. Sexual preference is a different issue than the color of your skin or what sex you are. And my source for assertion that gays would hinder our mission is from what I have already seen. I have known a few gay guys in the Army with me. They were seen as outcasts and no one really wanted to be around them. This breaks up unit cohesion. If you do not work together well as a group, then that hinders your ability to accomplish your mission.

I completely and totally understand if you, personally, could not handle it. Were the DADT to be repealed and the military to begin the process of integrating openly gay people, you'd be as unfit for military service as a person unable to handle serving with persons of other ethnicities or of the opposite gender. I don't mean this as an insult. I just mean that the (US) military is an all-volunteer service and if some people just can't handle its requirements, it will move on and enlist (or give commissions to, via the Congress) people who can, just as it did when it integrated blacks, made racial discrimination in general verboten, and integrated women.

Like I already said, being a woman or being black is completely different than the gay issue.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Facing the enemy and not liking a dude getting a wood looking at you are completely different things.

The way you phrase it here, yes. However, if you are expected to be facing down Islamists, do you really want a bunch of girls on the frontline who get scared if a guy gets a boner looking at you?

Hell by your logic, guys should be allowed to shower with girls too then right? I mean if it is ok for a gay dude to go in to a group shower of all males then the same should be true for straight males going into female showers correct?

As it's already been explained, you can get seperate stalls.

But even if a man does look you up and down, why would you give a ****? Seriously? You're not gay, so what does it matter?

 

[Quad4_72]

The way you phrase it here, yes. However, if you are expected to be facing down Islamists, do you really want a bunch of girls on the frontline who get scared if a guy gets a boner looking at you?

There you go saying that I am scared again. Am I scared of of a gay guy having a chubby whilst gazing at me? No. Am I disgusted by it? Yes. Please stop associating this with combat because it has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As it's already been explained, you can get seperate stalls.

Shouldn't have to just to accommodate gays.

But even if a man does look you up and down, why would you give a ****? Seriously? You're not gay, so what does it matter?

Going with the shower situation, it felt to me like the gay guy was taking advantage of a situation to see a bunch of naked men and have sexual fantasies about it. Ask a group of women how they would feel if a guy was staring into their shower room and getting an erection. I can bet you they would feel about the same way I did.