Obama and the Gay Military...

[Bill Thompson]

Swedish navy has women serving on submarines. Let me know if you find a situation with closer confines.

Thanks for that.

But if you read my entire post you would know why you cannot point to another culture and use it as a model for how the United States military will handle a simular situation.

Didn't Abba continue to record and make music through their marrages and divorces? Didn't Fleetwood Mac break up and constantly reorganize and brake up through their marrages and divorces? You cannot point to another culture and say that just because one culture has a different male/female interaction that works it can magically be applied to another culture and expect it to work.

 

[Bill Thompson]

And to go back to my question to you earlier:



What about all the armed forces in the world were simply being a homosexual no longer bars you from being in the military, for example the UK?

Most industralized countries are secular. The United States is not dispite how much people would like to think it is or should be. That is just one part of the equation. There may be other considerations and factors. You cannot compare apples to oranges.

 

[Alt+F4]

Gay's men do not have gay sex.

This about sums up the total of your homophobic logic.

 

[Bill Thompson]

This about sums up the total of your homophobic logic.

No, it doesn't.

Explain how I am homophobic and/or my logic is homophobic.

Your comment is a stawman logical fallacy. Wouldn't it be great if we could just label something we did not like and it would just go away?

Also, you are taking this entirely out of context. Straight men don't have to have sex either. You missed the point if you did not read the context.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Originally Posted by geni

Swedish navy has women serving on submarines. Let me know if you find a situation with closer confines.

Thanks for that.

But if you read my entire post you would know why you cannot point to another culture and use it as a model for how the United States military will handle a simular situation.

Didn't Abba continue to record and make music through their marrages and divorces? Didn't Fleetwood Mac break up and constantly reorganize and brake up through their marrages and divorces? You cannot point to another culture and say that just because one culture has a different male/female interaction that works it can magically be applied to another culture and expect it to work.

By the way, can you show me a legit news link that this is actually true now and more information.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Um each case will be quoted in the context of the specific point of the brief in that context, it is big slog and I haven't done more than skim.

Loving vs, Virginia is cited in the context of pg 32 (I have to sign up to downlaod the PDF, which would allow me to copy),Loving vs, Virginia is cited in the section regarding discrimination based upon sex (I assume they mean phsyical gender) and they use it as an example of where SCOTUS ruled the state could not prohibit interacial marriage. I guess because it was obviously discriminatory.

The brief then claims that courts have rejected the contention of similarity to Loving vs, Virginia, in that homosexuals are not a 'suspect class'.

I happen to disagree with this argument.

And why I think that arguments should be based on that it is discrimination based on sex. The unfairness targets sexuality, but the actual discrimination factor is sex. And sex is a more protected class than sexuality.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Swedish navy has women serving on submarines. Let me know if you find a situation with closer confines.

The secretary of the navy said the other day on the daily show that they are planning on opening up subs to women. Of course it will take women going through all the courses first.

 

[zooterkin]

Thanks for that.

But if you read my entire post you would know why you cannot point to another culture and use it as a model for how the United States military will handle a simular situation.

Didn't Abba continue to record and make music through their marrages and divorces? Didn't Fleetwood Mac break up and constantly reorganize and brake up through their marrages and divorces? You cannot point to another culture and say that just because one culture has a different male/female interaction that works it can magically be applied to another culture and expect it to work.

So you're saying that homophobia is ok in the US armed forces because it's cultural? (Are you American, btw?)

I don't see how Fleetwood Mac are an example of another culture, since about half of them are American; I guess it's as strong as your other "arguments".

 

[Toke]

BTW. The A.B.'s in the merchant marine spend a lot of time washing the ship.
On the inside it is because it is densely populated and needs it.
On the outside it is mostly to remove salt deposits in order to protect the ship against corrosion.

The 18 points seems to be either wrong* or boil down to Americans being too bigoted and/or religious to accept gays in the military.
It worked for blacks, and standards changed, why not for gays?

*As in disproved by other countries.

 

[Marduk]

Disagree - a similar restriction was lifted in the UK and it doesn't seem to have caused any breakdown in the effectiveness of the UK military. Which is hardly surprising since even when it was illegal homosexuals still served.

I served in the UK military before the restriction was lifted, I was not aware of any homophobes in my unit, we were all far more worried about the enemy than we were with our friends. There was a member of my platoon who was overtly camp, everyone understood why and nobody cared.

I think the homophobic reaction is only at higher levels, where they think that gay = male rapist. This if you know much about the british upper classes is quite ironic along the lines of "methinks the ladies do protest too much".

 

[Alt+F4]

I'm trying to think of any other job in the United States where you can be fired for telling your boss or co-workers about dinner with your spouse the night before.

 

[geni]

Thanks for that.

But if you read my entire post you would know why you cannot point to another culture and use it as a model for how the United States military will handle a simular situation.

I'm aware that the US can't match sweden's shear military brilliance (if they had had the economy to back it up they might still be a significant player) but you'd think by now the US would have picked up some military ability.

In any case last I checked most Swedes and Americans were homo sapiens. If US drill sergeants can't get troops to adopt whatever culture the drill sergeant wants you probably need a better training setup.

You cannot point to another culture and say that just because one culture has a different male/female interaction that works it can magically be applied to another culture and expect it to work.

Seems to have worked across quite a range of cultures.

 

[Sledge]

I'm trying to think of any other job in the United States where you can be fired for telling your boss or co-workers about dinner with your spouse the night before.

Catholic priest?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

#18 It Would Be A Gift to Our Enemies. The final reason (for now – I will add more as I think of them) is that allowing open gays in the military would be a gift and a great recruitment tool for our radical Islamic enemies. In war, we are supposed to all be willing to make sacrifices. Banning Gays from serving in the military can be one of these sacrifices. It is not unreasonable.

Why are you willing to give into our enemies?

Where's the evidence about Gay Britons openly serving in the armed forces being a gift to our enemies? It will be nice when the army in the States becomes as mature and civilised as ours.

 

[Sledge]

Good grief. I've just waded through Bill's full list of reasons. I think I need a shower now. It's some of most ill-informed bigoted bile I've had the misfortune to read since... well, since the Jan Moir article on Steven Gately's death. That same horrible tone of "I'm not homophobic, but they are wrong." Please, at least have the honesty to admit you are afraid of and dislike gay people, don't hide behind this transparent facade.

 

[Alt+F4]

Catholic priest?

Nah, that would probably only warrent a transfer.

 

[Phrost]

Hey Bill, you do realize that there have been highly successful, all gay military units in the ancient world, right?

Hell, Thebes used 150 gay couples to kick the crap out of the Spartans. I'm pretty sure most soldiers can handle openly gay servicemen/women in 2009, for the most part without a significant number incidents, just as they can handle being deployed for several months in units with females without raping them.

I knew several gays (male and female) when I was active, only one of which was bad soldier.

And as far as keeping a ship clean, you're completely missing the point. It's 25% busywork, 25% discipline, 50% hygiene; when you have a bunch of people in a relatively confined space any lack of cleanliness can lead to an illness that spreads through the ranks like wildfire.

 

[GreyICE]

How would you know? Were you in the military? I was. I get my information from the horses mouth.

Excuse me, what? I got my information from the military report commissioned in 1965, which interviewed many of the people directly involved in the decision making process, and which was signed off on by several Generals.

You got your information, by your own admission, at least 3 decades out of date, what, fifth hand?

That's just laughable. OF COURSE primary source military reports are more reliable than 5th hand information 3 decades out of date. Are we on a skeptic forum or Homeopaths-R-US?

I just can't get over the stubble. Ew!

Try to understand this. The military does not function like a company that gets paid to make a product. Their miopic view is to win a war. They do not want to add any ingredients to the recipe unless it is a new weapon that can go faster and make a bigger explosion.

I think it is also insane that you are implying I am a racist just because I am telling you what the military once did. First of all, you don't know if I am black or white. What I am saying would be said by either a black man or a white man. And, by the way, eventhough most white people i know are illogical does not mean that most of them are.

Your forcefeeding me words that I never said. I never claimed you were a racist. I have no belief that you are a racist. I do believe you are a reactionary, who does not favor change, even when it is conducted to address a real, existing injustice.

I can and will say that the same reactionary logic that you are using would have left black men out of the military 50 years ago, no desegregation, no justice. I can and have cited sources that show black men were 'inferior' in combat by scientific metrics, that show that the decision to create a segregated military was done to remedy an injustice - not because the military had evidence that it would make their fighting units superior.

I think this speaks well of the military. But it speaks poorly of your interpretation of events being true.

Your arguments are all emotionally charged and illogical. They are not founded in rational thinking. They are not founded in moral logic. They are pure reactionary thinking - that because something has been done one way, it cannot be done another way. Pure bunk.

 

[Bill Thompson]

So you're saying that homophobia is ok in the US armed forces because it's cultural? (Are you American, btw?)

I don't see how Fleetwood Mac are an example of another culture, since about half of them are American; I guess it's as strong as your other "arguments".

Why does this have to be about homophobia? I can remember when I was arguing in favor of gay marrage a lot of people assumed I was gay. You want to label something so you can more easily dismiss it. Why is it that if you think open gays in the military would not work you are automatically homophobic? Why is it that you think gays should have the right to get married you are automatically gay?

The FleetWood Mac example was showing a contrast between men and women relationsips in the UK and US cultures and the scandanavian cultures.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I'm trying to think of any other job in the United States where you can be fired for telling your boss or co-workers about dinner with your spouse the night before.

That is right. Try to think of another job where you legally sign your life over to your employer as well.