Merged Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is /Born Jewish!

[Marc39]

Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government have no racial hatred of Jews, so if Ahmadinejad did have Jewish ancestry, it wouldn't really be important.

Iranian Jews are oppressed. That is the bottom line.

 

[Marc39]

I invite everyone claiming anti-zionism is just a PC way to say you're antisemitic to say it to the face of an anti-zionist jewish person. Anti-zionism as far as I'm concerned has nothing to do with any racial hate or aversion. It is being opposed to the belief that it is the right of a group of people to claim a part of the earth's land on the sole basis of it being written in a book somewhere. Even if that means that that land was already occupied by another group of people.

Of course not everyone uses the word in this way. I'm sure that mr. jones has a completely different thought behind the meaning of the word zionist. Every antisemitic person that doesn't want to use that word will claim to be an anti-zionist. That doesn't mean that every anti-zionist is an antisemite though.

Anti-Zionism is anti Jews living without persecution. Churchill described Zionism as "a refuge from oppression"

Churchill's viewpoint is infinitely more important than that of some internet chat room habitue.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government have no racial hatred of Jews, so if Ahmadinejad did have Jewish ancestry, it wouldn't really be important.

They don't? OK, their actions indicate at least some malicious feelings in that direction.

 

[Cleon]

They don't? OK, their actions indicate at least some malicious feelings in that direction.

Read what I said more carefully. I said racial hatred. I'm not denying they're anti-Semites, only that their anti-Semitism is racial in nature (a la Hitler). It's not--it's ideological. It doesn't matter if your parents were Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or Pastafarian; if you adopt their ideology, they don't have an issue with you.

So it doesn't matter if Ahmadinejad's great-great-granddaddy was Jewish. He's undoubtedly Muslim. They've got no reason to get worked up about his ancestry.

 

[FireGarden]

Anti-Zionism is anti Jews living without persecution. Churchill described Zionism as "a refuge from oppression"

Churchill's viewpoint is infinitely more important than that of some internet chat room habitue.

Churchill on Zionism Vs Bolshevism
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism

Possibly not Churchill's own words, but (at the very least) he endorsed them by putting his name to them:

Good and Bad Jews

[...] And it may well be that this same astounding race may at the present time be in the actual process of producing another system of morals and philosophy, as malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if not arrested, would shatter irretrievably all that Christianity has rendered possible. It would almost seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Antichrist were destined to originate among the same people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of the divine and the diabolical.

[...] First there are the Jews who, dwelling in every country throughout the world, identify themselves with that country, enter into its national life, and, while adhering faithfully to their own religion, regard themselves as citizens in the fullest sense of the State which has received them. Such a Jew living in England would say, “I am an Englishman practising the Jewish faith.” This is a worthy conception, and useful in the highest degree.

[...] In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.

[...]

Anybody else saying the above would be called an anti-semite.

As A B Yehoshua said: "In a perverse way, a real anti Semite must be a Zionist." So it's no surprise Churchill is pro-Zionism:

[...] in building up with the utmost possible rapidity a Jewish national centre in Palestine which may become not only a refuge to the oppressed from the unhappy lands of Central Europe, but which will also be a symbol of Jewish unity and the temple of Jewish glory, a task is presented on which many blessings rest.

Is that what you meant to link to Marc? Or did you have another Churchill in mind?

 

[Marc39]

Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government have no racial hatred of Jews, so if Ahmadinejad did have Jewish ancestry, it wouldn't really be important.

The Quran defines Jews by religion and its anti-Jewish views are religious in nature. The contempt for Jews among IslamoNazis is religious-based. So, you're splitting hairs as the "Iranian government" has a religious hatred of Jews.

 

[Cleon]

The Quran defines Jews by religion and its anti-Jewish views are religious in nature. The contempt for Jews among IslamoNazis is religious-based. So, you're splitting hairs as the "Iranian government" has a religious hatred of Jews.

No, but thanks for playing.

 

[Marc39]

No, but thanks for playing.

Not exactly the most effective rejoinder, but, one which meets my expectations.

120,000 Iranian Jews have left, in haste, since the Iranian Revolution, comprising the majority of Iran's Jewish population, in many cases, with only the clothes on their backs.

 

[Cleon]

Not exactly the most effective rejoinder, but, one which meets my expectatons.

mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm.

120,000 Iranian Jews have left, in haste, since the Iranian Revolution, in many cases, with only the clothes on their backs.

And that has what, exactly, to do with my point?

 

[Marc39]

mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm.




And that has what, exactly, to do with my point?

My point is you have no insight into Iranian society vis-a-vis Jews.

 

[gtc]

I will be very surprised if Cleon provides any evidence for the claims he is making.

 

[Cleon]

My point is you have no insight into Iranian society vis-a-vis Jews.

*sigh* Marc, you already admitted that my view of Iranian attitude towards Jews was essentially correct, when you said it was religious--ie, not racial.

Now, if you concentrate, try to look through the fog, and focus, you will see that this thread has a topic; that topic being the possibility of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad having Jewish ancestry. The topic is not the general status of Jews in Iran.

Since, as you yourself have admitted, the Iranians have no racial hatred of Jews, but merely an ideological one, despite all your sneering and pathetic attempts at condescension, my point is 100% correct. It does not matter if Ahmadinejad had Jewish ancestry or not, as he is 100% Muslim.


So, as I said originally: No, but thanks for playing.

 

[Cleon]

I will be very surprised if Cleon provides any evidence for the claims he is making.

I wasn't aware that my claim - specifically, that Iranians don't give a damn if someone has Jewish ancestry as long as they're actually Muslim - was seriously in doubt. Even Marc admitted it's got nothing to do with race.

 

[Marc39]

I wasn't aware that my claim - specifically, that Iranians don't give a damn if someone has Jewish ancestry as long as they're actually Muslim - was seriously in doubt. Even Marc admitted it's got nothing to do with race.

You stated the "Iranian government" has no "racial hatred" of Jews.

This is fundamentally incorrect, no pun intended.

 

[Cleon]

You stated the "Iranian government" has no "racial hatred" of Jews.

This is fundamentally incorrect, no pun intended.

Make up your mind, Marc.

The Quran defines Jews by religion and its anti-Jewish views are religious in nature. The contempt for Jews among IslamoNazis is religious-based.

Iranian anti-Semitism is not based on a racial conception of Jews. You've said so yourself.

 

[Marc39]

Make up your mind, Marc.



Iranian anti-Semitism is not based on a racial conception of Jews. You've said so yourself.

Iranian anti-Semitism is based on a religious conception of Jews. A distinction without an appreciable difference.

 

[Cleon]

Iranian anti-Semitism is based on a religious conception of Jews.

ie, not racial. Thank you for conceding the point. Again.

A distinction without an appreciable difference.

In general attitude towards the Jewish community, perhaps not; but that's not what I was addressing, nor is it the topic of this thread. However, when it comes to someone who may or may not have Jewish ancestry, but is currently a die-hard Khomeinei-worshipping Muslim--which is the topic of this thread--the difference is substantial.

In summary: My point, which is that it doesn't matter to the Iranians one little bit if Ahmadinejad might have had Jewish ancestry, remains 100% correct.

So thanks for playing.

 

[Marc39]

ie, not racial. Thank you for conceding the point. Again.

Your point is not much of a point, really. Jews are discriminated against in Iran based on being Jewish.

Accept my correction of your erroneous statement graciously.

 

[Darth Rotor]

*sigh* Marc, you already admitted that my view of Iranian attitude towards Jews was essentially correct, when you said it was religious--ie, not racial.

Cleon, not everyone in the world makes the fine distinctions you are making, drawing discrete boundaries between culture, race, ethnicity, nation, and religion. It is quite recent, as a phenomenon, that nation/religion/race/and cluture weren't all bound together habitually in the descriptives being used here. You are applying an Amero-centric template to the PoV and rhetoric of Persians. I am not convinced that is the best way to look at it.

I understand where you are coming from, being American myself.

It doesn't matter if your parents were Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or Pastafarian; if you adopt their ideology, they don't have an issue with you.

I appreciate your agreement that "convert or be abused/scorned" as an attitude retains currency among some of the Persian Shia Muslim leadership.

As Tenille once crooned to the Captain:

Dhimmi baby,
Once again!

So it doesn't matter if Ahmadinejad's great-great-granddaddy was Jewish. He's undoubtedly Muslim. They've got no reason to get worked up about his ancestry.

We have an accord. So long as he does not advocate a Persian carpet bombing of Israel, his rhetoric retains mostly entertainment value, and self affirmation of already convinced anti-Israeli sentimentalists.

DR

(Slight misquote on the C & T song, of course)

 

[Cleon]

Your point is not much of a point, really. Jews are discriminated against in Iran based on being Jewish.

Which is not the topic of this thread, nor is it related to the point I was making.

Accept my correction of your erroneous statement graciously.

I would, if there was such a correction to be accepted. There isn't.