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Should the F-35 be scrapped?

I bolded everywhere that we have to implicitly trust your speculative flailing to even begin to accept your proposal. Sorry, but you only pretend to have something.

The sum of your posts can be distilled into something resembling "but we have t3h computers and the robotz now," as if that makes a difference when reality slaps you in the face with a cold fish.
Wow, you mastered the bold tool.

Congrats. I suppose we now will get an indication you've learned about embedded images, lists, and centered text, which the JREF lets you do.

When you post something of substance, I'll pay attention, but seriously, your strawman is stupid and wrong. I get that you have a teenager's adversion to seeming to 'lose debate' or 'not get the last word' but really? Childish.
 
GreyICE, what do you think of quality control? I can assure you that the first aircraft under your scheme won't be reliable. Also industrial spies will love your ideas.
I'm sorry, but we test everything that comes out our door. If we can't test it, we know places that can, and can run it through a test procedure.

The quality will be pretty high. Quality is mostly a matter of adequate testing and proper quality control.

As for industrial spies, well, that happens. At the same time, despite the vast amount of stuff we classify, 90%, at a minimum, of the stuff that goes into a jet is simply not that groundbreaking. Cooling systems are cooling systems. Electronics are electronics. There are security concerns, but frankly, we can deal.

As for aircraft numbers, 2000 is a minimum, an airforce needs a buffer in case an enemy creates a new effective weapon system. If you only have a few hundred, then your factories might be bombed before you can begin making new aircraft.
But who makes what new weapons system? And how do they get it here? At a minimum, they must load their new weapons system onto aircraft carriers (the location of every one on earth is, trust me, a well-monitored little piece of info) then boat that weapons system over here.

Okay, they get close. So? Cruising range on Tomahawks and AGM-86s weighs in at a thousand kilometers. They can be launched from planes and subs.

This isn't 1942, where fleets of ships can leave the grid, and we have no idea where they'll end up. We can monitor every square meter of this planet.

I think you're really overestimating the ability of our enemy, which brings us back to martians. They're really about the only group that could manufacture enough of a weapons system without us knowing, perform the technological leaps required to outdo us without us knowing, get that weapon close enough to America to use it without us knowing... it's a nonstarter.

P.S. ICBMs are their own kettle of fish. For instance, they really only have one payload, and if they use those to hit factories, we have different problems.
 
I'm sorry, but we test everything that comes out our door. If we can't test it, we know places that can, and can run it through a test procedure.

The quality will be pretty high. Quality is mostly a matter of adequate testing and proper quality control.
Sure you're likely to catch the bad parts but the beginning will have a large amount of rejects.

As for industrial spies, well, that happens. At the same time, despite the vast amount of stuff we classify, 90%, at a minimum, of the stuff that goes into a jet is simply not that groundbreaking. Cooling systems are cooling systems. Electronics are electronics. There are security concerns, but frankly, we can deal.
That 90% might not be that groundbreaking but it will tell any enemies what the capabilities are of those aircraft. This is a very bad thing.

But who makes what new weapons system? And how do they get it here? At a minimum, they must load their new weapons system onto aircraft carriers (the location of every one on earth is, trust me, a well-monitored little piece of info) then boat that weapons system over here.
This is an example of arrogance and preparing for the last war, and its generally a good thing to avoid.

This isn't 1942, where fleets of ships can leave the grid, and we have no idea where they'll end up. We can monitor every square meter of this planet.
You are really overestimating the abilities of the US. And you seem unaware that the technological edge is becoming smaller.
 
I really wish you'd read what I write, once in a while. It would be absolutely awesome.
The factories that make them ALREADY make other things. They just have a large chunk of time taken up by these components. Really, I assure you, not every component is made in some hyper-specialized factory. There's probably a few of the components that are made in some specialized place, and the assembly area has to be specialized, but most of the subcomponents are probably subcontracted to people who do plenty of other things.
It takes auto companies months to re-tool a factory to produce a differeent model of automobile. And you think something like an F-22 only requires loading some new software in the robots or something? And let's not forget, you are advocating desingin a complete aircraft from the ground up, and producing thousands of them, after a war actually breaks out. Seriously, this is such a ridiculous statement I'm not even sure you are serious or just trolling.

I'm saying if we simply made the plans to make these things, if we needed to, we could make them very quickly. A large part of the manufacturing delay is simply the R&D phase.
No, we can't. The plant in Georgia produces a few dozen F-22s a year. You can't just ramp that up to produce 2,000 in a few months. And the F-22 isn't a Sherman tank, you can't just take over a GM plant and have them churning out F-22s overnight.

And do you know the first production version of the F-22 didn't fly until over 6 years after the prototype version? And it took 6 more years of testing and perfecting it until the first one was actually delivered? The days of a top-line plane going from design to delivery in just a few months (like the P-51 Mustang) are long gone. The P-51 was actually the last fighter of the propeller era, engineers had 35 years of experience in them which speeded up the process greatly.

I don't quite know how you think a factory works, but I admit to developing a bit of a curiousity now. Pray tell, what do you think a factory is? And how close is it to what Henry Ford was doing?
Apparently you think that some guy punching a few buttons can make a factory produce whatever he wants it to, like a Replicator in Star Trek. Do you know the F-22 has components made in hundreeds of separate factories in dozens of different states?

Real life isn't Star Trek.
 
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How long does it take from you have a new weapon system, plane, tank, whatever and til you have the crews trained with the equipment and as a unit?

How do you train 2000 pilots with only one prototype plane?
 
It takes auto companies months to re-tool a factory to produce a differeent model of automobile. And you think something like an F-22 only requires loading some new software in the robots or something? And let's not forget, you are advocating desingin a complete aircraft from the ground up, and producing thousands of them, after a war actually breaks out. Seriously, this is such a ridiculous statement I'm not even sure you are serious or just trolling.
I am advocating nothing of the sort, and I see no point in discussing anything with you if you will continue to simply invent fantasies.

I can and will take the time to respond to you if you demonstrate that you take the time to respond to me, but so far each and every post you have made has demonstrated nothing as much as that you did not read anything I wrote. I admit to being surprised, as I was not overly verbose, and I wrote in as close to plain English as I could, and yet you demonstrably failed to read it.

This is an absolute waste of time, because I doubt you'll read this either, but at least other people will understand why I'm not answering any of your off-base and inane remarks.

(Toke: How do you normally train pilots. No, really.)
 
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GreyICE, you about the only one here with your position, and what we have been seeing is a lot of handwaving problems away.

And while WildCat is exaggerating your position, he is correct that you seems to ignore a lot of problems, not limited to ignoring that it takes time to retrain personnel, retool a line and work out the kinks in the production line.
 
I am advocating nothing of the sort, and I see no point in discussing anything with you if you will continue to simply invent fantasies.
Oh, but you did. Right here:
Well one could point out that 2,000 new airplanes is about 2,000 more than would be required to defend us from our only neighbors who are in a position to threaten us with airstrikes, Mexico and Canada.

Or one could point out that 2,000 new airplanes is probably about 1,900 more than necessary to take out the entire airforce of Iran (whose top two planes, numerically, are the F-4 Phantom II, and the P-47 Thunderbolt (yeah, really). Number 3 goes to the F-5E.

Or I could go on...
So you think that somewhere between 0 and 100 fighters is all we need, and then if someone stronger attacks or if the need arises we can just crap out thousands more as needed.

Patently ridiculous.

I can and will take the time to respond to you if you demonstrate that you take the time to respond to me, but so far each and every post you have made has demonstrated nothing as much as that you did not read anything I wrote. I admit to being surprised, as I was not overly verbose, and I wrote in as close to plain English as I could, and yet you demonstrably failed to read it.
I did actually read and understand everything you wrote. However, I'm not so sure that you understand everything you wrote.

This is an absolute waste of time, because I doubt you'll read this either, but at least other people will understand why I'm not answering any of your off-base and inane remarks.
My remarks are the direct implications of your claims. If you think 0-100 fighters are sufficient and that we could just immediately start producing more as needed then you have to keep hundreds of factories on stand-by and ready to produce immediately. All raw materials will have to be in place, production lines tooled up and ready to go, highly trained workers waiting patiently for the line to start up, engineers on hand to tweak things as necessary, etc etc. Like I said... :boggled:

(Toke: How do you normally train pilots. No, really.)
I asked you this same question twice already, pointing out that it takes years to train pilots and mechanical crews. You ignored it every time.
 
Really WildCat.

So when you write:

you are advocating desingin a complete aircraft from the ground up, and producing thousands of them, after a war actually breaks out.

You think it's something I actually wrote. Something I actually advocated. I spent PARAGRAPHS talking about this, and you came to that conclusion.

It's not. And you can't reach that conclusion. So basically, I don't see any point in talking to you, because you're not reading anything I write. The fact that you have to go back to, what, my second post in this thread to support your position is laughable. No, I'm done. You're quite literally not worth responding to here. Endevor to read what I write. And I might respond. But not on this thread, that's the second time, and I'm not a baseball umpire.
 
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And btw, the last country to fly the P-47 Thunderbolt was Peru and they retired them in 1966.
 
GreyICE, you about the only one here with your position, and what we have been seeing is a lot of handwaving problems away.

And while WildCat is exaggerating your position, he is correct that you seems to ignore a lot of problems, not limited to ignoring that it takes time to retrain personnel, retool a line and work out the kinks in the production line.

I'm not handwaving problems, I'm saying many of them are less problematic than people think, and others can be solved with, among other things, large infusions of cash, which will be spent on a ton of aircraft that will probably then require a ton of cash to maintain, and will ultimately do very, very little.

Saying a problem is technologically solveable and handwaving it are two very different things. Most of the problems people have listed are either technologically solveable, or simply things I don't advocate (like WildCat's insane idea that I think we start the design the day the war starts and... how did he get that impression? Nevermind).

The best part is once you've built your rapid retooling factories that can make both aircraft parts and other useful parts, they'll still be there, producing useful things for civilians for decades. And the planes will be sitting on runways, costing millions to maintain, or maybe bombing third world nations (something we could accomplish by dropping sticks of dynamite out of the back of a Galaxy).
 
Really WildCat.

So when you write:

you are advocating desingin a complete aircraft from the ground up, and producing thousands of them, after a war actually breaks out.

You think it's something I actually wrote. Something I actually advocated. I spent PARAGRAPHS talking about this, and you came to that conclusion.
Then what the hell were you talking about when you wrote this?
No, it really wasn't. Something you seem to forget is that we DIDN'T HAVE all the stuff we fought WW I and II with. We made it. On the spot. Reasonably quickly. With computer-operated factories, robotic cutting instruments, rapid prototyping, etc., there really is no technological barrier to retooling at a pace that would kick the pants off the WWI/II era retooling.

So your justification of your point is pretty much an abject failure. If we need it, we can make it.

P.S. I think we could make quite a few factories with that cash. They could be used to make airplanes if we needed them, and if we didn't, oh look, they can make something useful. Wait, that would almost be a stimulus, which we can't do, we can only spend government money on military pork.
Like I said, I seem to be paying more attention to what you actually wrote than you are. Because it sure as hell seems that you are saying we could just whip it all up from scratch after a war breaks out. Especially since you claimed that as few as zero F-35s are necessary.

And you keep ignoring the question of where the trained pilots and mechanical crews would come from, not even your Start Trek replicator factory can whip those out.
 
(something we could accomplish by dropping sticks of dynamite out of the back of a Galaxy).

I would recommend against it.
1964Galaxy.jpg

(yes, I'm joking)
 
I'm not handwaving problems, I'm saying many of them are less problematic than people think, and others can be solved with, among other things, large infusions of cash, which will be spent on a ton of aircraft that will probably then require a ton of cash to maintain, and will ultimately do very, very little.

Saying a problem is technologically solveable and handwaving it are two very different things. Most of the problems people have listed are either technologically solveable, or simply things I don't advocate (like WildCat's insane idea that I think we start the design the day the war starts and... how did he get that impression? Nevermind).

The best part is once you've built your rapid retooling factories that can make both aircraft parts and other useful parts, they'll still be there, producing useful things for civilians for decades. And the planes will be sitting on runways, costing millions to maintain, or maybe bombing third world nations (something we could accomplish by dropping sticks of dynamite out of the back of a Galaxy).
Ok let me get this right, correct me if I am wrong.

You want to reduce the USAF to 100 or so new fighters. These were build in a single batch to test the design and the production process. After wards the molds and such are replicated and shipped to multiple multipurpose-factories.
At the same time, the USAF will continuously be working on the next design, of which a batch will be produced in 10-15 years or so.

Extra question: will you also reduce the navy, especially the carriers?

My conclusions
- Well the US will be reduced to a regional power. I don't think that US culture will be very suited for that. Also if the US is reduced to a regional power then it will become worth it for other countries to build up their power projection capacity.
- As of the design, it will become highly accessible. So every aircraft design will end up nearly completely in the hands of other countries. This however doesn't happen in RL because the production tools are destroyed as soon as possible and that the design information isn't spread around.
- The US will have little chance of absorbing new and effective enemy weapon systems. The USAF could be rendered non-effective within a week.
 
As an up front, I am pleased to see that you do understand metals and production. That makes my confusion over your wild assertions all the stronger.
With all due respect, I think you highly overestimate the capacity of modern aircraft. Very few modern military craft are capable of transatlantic flight. Even fewer are capable of doing that and a return flight. To the best of my knowledge, none are capable of doing it with a significant payload. Transpacific is so laughable it can be idly ignored.
Besides a thing we call aerial refueling, the F-35 is not a replacement for a strategic bomber. It is a tactical aircraft for other roles and missions. They transpac all the time, our current tactical aircraft, using a combination of bases and aerial refueling. Have for decades. Likewise across the Atlantic.

Also, you do not seem to fathom how the B-1 and B-2 operate, do you?
So I'm failing to see how a few U-Boats
This deliberate non sequitur isn't worth wasting time on.
So what is this air threat to us?
Since we stopped using threat based planning in the 80's, and have been on capabilities based defense planning for over twenty years, you are over 20 years out of date.
Now you hypothesize the need to protect American interests overseas. With all due respect, what interests?
All. We have chosen, for sixty years, to make alliances and engage globally, and have chosen to enter into security partnerships all over the world, in most of them as senior partner. Unless that base line policy changes, the follow on won't change, in terms of needing X amount of tools to deal with X, Y, and Z amount of collective security concerns and Options.
Open the lens a bit wider.

There are other metals than steel, many of which are used in aircraft, and of those metals, there are many different alloys of varying availablilty in the GLOBAL market place. The number of suppliers has fallen.
But the point is, a global power of what? The thing you're missing is that power costs us massive amounts of money when exercised, and when not exercised, it does... nothing.
Wrong. The spectrum of action and conflict ranges from Non Combatant evacuation during local conflict to low intensity wars to larger wars. All of that capability to act is desired by America, as manifested by the actions and policies of America's government for the past sixty years.
The fact is, no one is willing to risk massive World Wars anymore, and we have a military geared up to fight it.
Irrelevant, and wrong ,since
1. the All or Nothing silliness you just posted has nothing to do with the actual world, nor the actual decisions made in sending military forces to do X.
2. US military is in its present form, absent the nuke forces, purpose built for expeditionary warfare, not global world war.
Did it? If we put the combined military efforts of every Democrat since Johnson together, we could have done them with a fifth of our military. Did AMERICA choose to do this? Or did ONE PARTY choose to do this?
This lame cherry pick ought to embarass you.
As stated, America as global power, as a policy, is traceable to post WW II and the 1947 Defense Reorg act. All parties and all governments we have had since then have remained consistent in that regard, choosing to be globally engaged and to retain X amount of punching power as a world power. We reduced our force structure by about 40% after the Wall came down, but didn't stop being globally engaged in the least.

More poignantly, Clinton did something bizarre, during the nineties when the Peace Dividend was to be realized. He accelerated the number and uses of the US military globally to three and four times its previous level, in varying scales.

You don't actually know what you are talking about here.
You seem to think we need to live in 1944 forever.
That is sheer falsehood, but given your silly attempt to posit Mexico and Canad as "threat," I have tried to point out the actual security environment the US plays in. Fingers, get out of GreyIce's ears! Now! (What is going on here? A guy who often posts very sharply has gone mad, or so it seems.)
No, strategic materials have a longer production schedule. That's a bit different. There's many reasons for this (one of them is we simply don't need any of them very quickly - something you should admit rather easily).
No, since we tend to prepare for the battle of the first salvo. :p
*Sigh* At the moment, I am designing parts for railcars (as my last company went a bit caput, see: Economy). The factory that produces rail car parts can produce aircraft parts. Trust me, this is so (since we also do some aircraft parts, it's not a huge market, but it's there). You speak from ignorance. We regularly switch designs, switch shapes, switch production runs.
If that's what you do, why do you insist on this fantasy? TIME isn't somethng your factory can produce, which is why our military is formed as it is. To be ready to fight now. Trained forces, not simply a line of aircraft on the ramp ready to "go do something" some politician thinks is a good idea.
We could start cranking them out very, very quickly. With the entire distribution network set up, we could do it fast. And we could make a LOT of them.
But you cannot build time.

The 2000 F-35's will take over a decade and a half to produce, and the planes they replace will be phased out over time. I suspect that the number will fall before the production run is over, but that's a guess.
And meanwhile, most of the cash goes to expanding production and manufacturing capacity of factories within the borders of the United States.
Yeah, that doesn't change the fact that the factories you assume into existence aren't there.
See, you've created some alternate reality where there exists unsolvable problems to retooling, and then decided we must make decisions based on this reality. But problems? They can be solved. And that amount of money? That buys a lot of solving.
You can't buy time with money, which is why our force structure, and trained personnel, a perishable commodity, are put together the way they are: the battle of the first salvo, and expeditionary warfare.

That you assume you can grow from 100 to 2000 and grow 100 to 2000 trained and combat ready aircrews "rapidly" means that you are being fast and loose with time.

Once again, absent a policy change of a profound sort, the force structure will be maintained in a "ready to go" posture.

Could it be a third smaller?

Sure.

Could it be a half smaller?

Sure, if the politicians choose to have fewer, or different, options available.

DR
 
But why? Why is it necessary to spend billions of dollars on a contingency even you admit is unlikely?

Depending on your outlook, that can be explained with either of these quotes (or both!):

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Carthago delenda est
 
Depending on your outlook, that can be explained with either of these quotes (or both!):

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Carthago delenda est

Translations: The military always has a good reason why you shouldn't cut spending.
 
That doesn't mean you have a good reason why they should.

I don't think this is something that comes in a default neutral position, Prestige. If your argument is that there's no reason why they SHOULD be spending money, but hey, there's no reason why they SHOULD NOT, well...

I can think of one...

So really, I don't think not spending has to be justified.
 

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