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Is Noam Chomsky a good source?

That is the "no true scotsman" fallacy again. Are those goalposts on wheels?

Anyway, Marx advocated violent revolution.

Have you even read the ten planks of communism?
 
No, it is not caricatured. i was commenting on the credibility of TWT. Having people who portary milsoevic as the good guy in the balkans on your site doesn't do too much good in terms of creidbility.
 
Yes, I have--and they say nothing about stringing people up or appointing dictators.
 
What a self-serving and nonsensical article. He calls for the US to pay reparations for the 'US-Israeli' invasion of Lebanon in 2006.

Then he lies about his statements about Jews.

This is what he wrote in 'Variant':

By now Jews in the US are the most privileged and influential part of the population. You find occasional instances of anti-Semitism but they are marginal. There's plenty of racism, but it's directed against Blacks, Latinos, Arabs are targets of enormous racism, and those problems are real. Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem, fortunately. It's raised, but it's raised because privileged people want to make sure they have total control, not just 98% control. That's why anti-Semitism is becoming an issue. Not because of the threat of anti-Semitism; they want to make sure there's no critical look at the policies the US (and they themselves) support in the Middle East. With regard to anti-Semitism, the distinguished Israeli statesman Abba Eban pointed out the main task of Israeli propaganda (they would call it exclamation, what's called 'propaganda' when others do it) is to make it clear to the world there's no difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. By anti-Zionism he meant criticisms of the current policies of the State of Israel. So there's no difference between criticism of policies of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, because if he can establish 'that' then he can undercut all criticism by invoking the Nazis and that will silence people. We should bear it in mind when there's talk in the US about anti-Semitism.

His justification is now:

You misunderstood. It was an ironic reference to people who would not be satisfied even if they had only 98 per cent control. Of course there is nothing even remotely like that.
 
....
Communism is not a goal, or an ideology--it is the end product of the natural, inevitable evolution of society from feudalism to democracy, from self-interest to altruism, from barbarism to enlightenment. If it has to be forced on people, they're not ready for it yet.
Well now here we'll have to part ways.

This view makes some idealistic assumptions about human nature as if you can predict evolution. We are what our genes make us. No path to enlightenment is going to change the human species.
 
Well now here we'll have to part ways.

This view makes some idealistic assumptions about human nature as if you can predict evolution. We are what our genes make us. No path to enlightenment is going to change the human species.

I think we can agree there.

Another example:

Why then, when rome became a republic, did it digress into an empire?
 
Yes, Lenin tried to argue that. And he was wrong. Communism can't work if it's achieved by violent revolution--people's minds are still stuck in a Capitalist worldview, and in all likelihood the leaders of the revolution will just become the new ruling class rather than setting up a proper, democratic government. And in Russia's case, that's exactly what happened; Stalin and his cohorts lived in ivory towers while the proletariat scrabbled over the crumbs that were left--and at the urging of Stalinist propaganda, they even blamed those among themselves who happened to have a goat or two to their names for their state of privation, just as the modern American is convinced that Socialism would consist of taking their hard-earned money and giving it to worthless bums.
Given what has happened in every nominally communist country ever, they have good reason for their convictions.

Communism is not a goal, or an ideology--it is the end product of the natural, inevitable evolution of society from feudalism to democracy, from self-interest to altruism, from barbarism to enlightenment. If it has to be forced on people, they're not ready for it yet.
The problem is, this is no more than a fairy tale. There is no such "natural, inevitable evolution", and communism is an economic system, not a political system. And as an economic system, it suffers from intrinsic scaling problems that make it unworkable for any significantly large number of people. That's why communism invariably fails when implemented on a national scale.

J. B. S. Haldane - himself a communist - pointed this out in his wonderful essay On Being the Right Size (which is mostly about biology, but discusses the broader applicability of scaling laws). That was back in 1928.
 
If communism was not a threat then why were communist parties infiltrating the US Government. Declassified documents show that communist agents were successful in infiltrating the State department. Why did they adhere to the ten planks of communism (abolition of private property, central planning etc.), and why did you put the words cold war in inverted commas?

saying they weren't true communists just moves the goalposts.
I answered this. You don't seem to be addressing my answer. You seem to just be repeating yourself, including your misrepresentation of my position.

I never said TWT didn't cite sources. I say that it's sources are unreliable.
You said:
...
And Thirdworldtraveler is one of the Death to America websites with no editors. Heck the woo level is so high on that i need a new woo-o-meter. As well as that, you have Stalinists and Milosevic apologists abound.
In reality, the TWT web site has an incredibly broad range of articles from many reliable sources. But you throw ad homs at any source you don't agree with rather than making an attempt to actually examine a subject. Most (all?) of your answers are little one liners with no substance. There are thousands of articles on TWT. Yet you manage to dismiss them all because you don't like the political view of some of them.


And what sources do you cite?

The Top 200 Chomsky Lies Compiled by Paul Bogdanor

It's a list of cherry picked quotes Chomsky supposedly said or wrote over his career combined with a personal vendetta refuting each of the quotes. If you criticize the US government you can expect to find pissed off people. And you can expect this kind of attack to be repeated ad nauseum round and round the blogosphere and all the other right wing sites like Front Page Mag.

Instead of looking at a person's views in their entirety, instead of considering you may not agree with everything a person says but they have a point of view that has a lot of validity, the mentality you are showing here, the mentality of the citation you posted is: Evil Person Ahead - Warning Do Not Listen To Anything Coming From The Mouth Of Said Evil Person.


There are times when a person does lose all credibility. That's how I feel for example about Dick Cheney. And clearly that is how you feel about Chomsky.

But where I see the difference here is a lot of right wingers totally refuse to see the US government as having done anything wrong toward other countries. And that is absurd. We need to look at our mistakes, not pretend we've always been the good guys, always done the ethical thing, always been right. That just isn't true.

Chomsky is not afraid to point out the bad things the US government is responsible for. You seem to hate him on those grounds alone.

I'm not sure I believe the cherry picked quotes truly represent Chomsky's views on your 200 Lies site. In this thread a number of people have misstated what the evidence supports about Chomsky's views. Because people don't like to hear the bad things about the US, they exaggerate Chomsky's negative positions then say, see what a bad guy he is.
 
I dislike chomsky because of his distortions of history.

1. The Khmer Rouge (Distortions at fourth hand)

2. Vietnam (Comparing US ignorance of the atrocities in vietnam, and i do call them atrocities, to holocaust denial)

3. Fabricating quotes from harry truman

4. Running apologia for Holocaust denial (Faurisson affair)

5. Denying the Srebrenica massacre (Marko Hoare).

6. relying on discredited evidence (Forged letter of stalin)

7. Compared the 9/11 attacks to the airstrike on a pharmaceutical plant (Chris Hitchens tears him to pieces over this)

8. Said there was a "silent genocide" in afghanistan (even though UNICEF said that famine was averted).

9. Knowingly appearing on The Alex Jones Show.

I wouldn't consider Harold Pinter, Michael Parenti and Mr Blum Reliable sources (International committee to defend Slobodan Milosevic, and in parenti's case, JFK woo).

Heck, it has George galloway on it, whom hitchens destroyed after his cringeworthy appearance on celebrity big brother.

Johann Hari tore Galloway and Pilger to pieces over their support for saddam.

Mr Blum even compares the millions murdered by Stalin to deaths by natural causes.

John Stockwell either (Big time on JFK Woo)

Agee was a traitor (Mitrokhin Archive, Pacepa)

Chomsky actually said those things. You just try to move the goalposts by claiming they were quotemined. I have heard those canards before.
 
I dislike chomsky because of his distortions of history.

1. The Khmer Rouge (Distortions at fourth hand)
He misinterpreted the situation as it was happening. Afterward he claimed nothing contrary to the historical record. How is that a "distortion of history"?

2. Vietnam (Comparing US ignorance of the atrocities in vietnam, and i do call them atrocities, to holocaust denial)
You are misrepresenting. What he said was that denying atrocities is not necessarily motivated by racism and used Vietnam as an example.

3. Fabricating quotes from harry truman
The Truman misquote was a mistake, which he corrected (quickly I believe). Given the amount of books he's written, this is hardly damning.

4. Running apologia for Holocaust denial (Faurisson affair)
Because he is against banning Holocaust denial?

5. Denying the Srebrenica massacre (Marko Hoare).
"The readers' editor has considered a number of complaints from Noam Chomsky concerning an interview with him by Emma Brockes published in G2, the second section of the Guardian, on October 31. He has found in favour of Professor Chomsky on three significant complaints.

Principal among these was a statement by Ms Brockes that in referring to atrocities committed at Srebrenica during the Bosnian war he had placed the word "massacre" in quotation marks. This suggested, particularly when taken with other comments by Ms Brockes, that Prof Chomsky considered the word inappropriate or that he had denied that there had been a massacre. Prof Chomsky has been obliged to point out that he has never said or believed any such thing. The Guardian has no evidence whatsoever to the contrary and retracts the statement with an unreserved apology to Prof Chomsky.

The headline used on the interview, about which Prof Chomsky also complained, added to the misleading impression given by the treatment of the word massacre. It read: Q: Do you regret supporting those who say the Srebrenica massacre was exaggerated? A: My only regret is that I didn't do it strongly enough.

No question in that form was put to Prof Chomsky."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2005/nov/17/pressandpublishing.corrections

6. relying on discredited evidence (Forged letter of stalin)
By this logic do you dislike yourself? :)

Source, BTW?

7. Compared the 9/11 attacks to the airstrike on a pharmaceutical plant (Chris Hitchens tears him to pieces over this)
I couldn't find the Hitchens article, but I found Chomsky's response:
http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskyhitch.html

No strong opinion from me on this since I don't know what the original quote was. I would disagree with calling the two things analogous, although I tend to yawn at "how dare you compare X to Y" bluster, personally. No complaints if you feel differently.

8. Said there was a "silent genocide" in afghanistan (even though UNICEF said that famine was averted).
Incorrect. Source?

9. Knowingly appearing on The Alex Jones Show.
Lol, he also went on Ali G without knowing who he was or that it was a comedy show. Likely the same situation here (except AJ may not realize its a comedy show either). He correctly questioned AJ's factual accuracy and was thus dubbed a "shill" for the NWO.
 
Srebrenica
http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/stories.asp?id=302

And Vietnam. He said that many americans thought 100000 people died in vietnam. If Germans thought that 200000 died in the holocaust, you'd think there was something wrong. Chomskyites go on to say Vietnam was a genocide.

For Faurisson

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2004/11/chomsky_and_hol_1.html

Harry Truman Quote:

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2004/09/an_intellectual.html

Silent Genocide:

http://semiskimmed.net/misc/chomsky_genocide.html
Well we could easily go on... but all of that... first of all indicates to us what’s happening. Looks like what’s happening is some sort of silent genocide. It also gives a good deal of insight into the elite culture, the culture that we are part of. It indicates that whatever, what will happen we don’t know, but plans are being made and programs implemented on the assumption that they may lead to the death of several million people in the next couple of weeks... very casually with no comment, no particular thought about it, that’s just kind of normal, here and in a good part of Europe.

Anyone with half a brain would know who Alex Jones was. Even Bill Cooper knew that.

I Stand corrected on the Forged Stalin letter.

Hitchens' response to the article by chomsky.

http://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/hitchens-3.htm
 
Am I supposed to read the whole thing?

And Vietnam. He said that many americans thought 100000 people died in vietnam. If Germans thought that 200000 died in the holocaust, you'd think there was something wrong.

Huh? Not following...

Chomskyites go on to say Vietnam was a genocide.
"Chomskyites" or Chomsky?

I asked for clarification of what your complaint is. That he signed a petition for a guy who was put in prison for holocaust denial? Posting a link to some guy's blog doesn't help me.

Another link to the same blog with absolutely no explanation. :rolleyes: Be less lazy please.

You claimed "[Chomsky] Said there was a "silent genocide" in afghanistan (even though UNICEF said that famine was averted)." That is, Chomsky declared that there was a genocide (referring to the past). The webpage you link to argues that Chomsky predicted a genocide (referring to the future). Chomsky's gripe at the time was that major human rights groups were reporting a strong likelyhood of mass starvation if the US took certain actions--which were ignored by the US government. Better get clear on what your argument is.

Anyone with half a brain would know who Alex Jones was.
Really? I didn't know who he was till about a year ago. Most people I've mentioned him to don't know he is. Maybe you spend too much time on JREF.
Even Bill Cooper knew that.
Excellent point.

I Stand corrected on the Forged Stalin letter.

Hitchens' response to the article by chomsky.

http://humanities.psydeshow.org/political/hitchens-3.htm
Again, I find "how dare you compare X to Y" political correctness crap boring, but you're free to disagree. I don't have much respect for Hitchen's pro-Bush foreign policy views anyway, although I like some of his stuff against religion.
 
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I was just citing sources as to why i thought Chomsky was not a credible source of information.

Just poor structuring of an argument on my part.

As I said Chomskyites insist genocide was committed by the US in Vietnam.
 
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Is noam chomsky a good source on the Cold War?

To answer the OP,

All of us should try to understand at least the major points of view about the Cold War (and other issues). That is why I actively seek these opinions out. And in my experience it is better to listen to actual intellectuals speak rather than just biased reports about what they supposedly said. Chomsky, I believe, is one such intellectual.

I have found CSPAN to be one good source for this since they regularly broadcast alternative views. Chomsky is one person they have had on many times.

(Interestingly, on one occasion he spoke to West Point cadets who obviously did not agree with him. Howver, they were very respectful and listened carefully, asking relevant questions. I contrast this to programs where David Horowitz was speaking was treated rudely by the Left who made no attempt to understand what he was saying. Obviously, this doesn't prove anything, but it does call in to question the opinion of many on this forum that the Left is always better at critical thinking than everyone else.)


But while understanding is extremely important, the problem is that many of the issues debated in the 1980's are now actually settled. As you point out, there has been a whole lot of evidence from the Soviet archives that any student of history must come to terms with.

We Now Know: Rethinking Cold War History by Gaddis
http://www.amazon.com/We-Now-Know-R...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253452063&sr=1-2

Spies: The Rise and Fall of the KGB in America by Haynes, Klehr, and Vassiliev
http://www.amazon.com/Spies-Rise-Fa...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253452214&sr=1-1
 
I was just citing sources as to why i thought Chomsky was not a credible source of information.

Just poor structuring of an argument on my part.
Oh, I see. Well address my points when you get a chance.

As I said Chomskyites insist genocide was committed by the US in Vietnam.

Really? All "Chomskyites" (whatever that means--I assume "Chomsky fans")?
 
I was an undergrad fan of NC's political critiques, less so nowadays. He's been famously right on things like Indochina, Nicaragua, and E. Timor. But IMO he was fatally wrong about Cambodia, Bosnia, and Afghanistan.

Right about Nicaragua? Did he predict that Violeta Chamorro, active supporter of the Nicaraguan resistance, was going to defeat Daniel Ortega in the 1990 election? I remember there were some who predicted that, but none of them were on the far Left.
 
Chomsky is a good source but his logic is screwy at times. Please see the Chomsky vs Leo Casey (not Hitchens) debate on the 9-11/pharmaceutical bombing comparision for this screwy logic http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...chomsky+leo+casey&hl =en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us (scroll down on the page for the numbered exchanges, Chomsky starts getting owned on page 3)

FYI: Those links don't work anymore. I used them a year ago on a different forum and they worked. Don't feel like tracking down the debate but somebody search Chomsky vs Leo Casey if you want to see Chomsky get destroyed.

PS: Chomsky's best debate, and possibly the best debate ever was when he destroyed Richard Perle.
 
I copied "Chomsky vs Leo Casey" from your post and googled it (without quotation marks). This thread was the first result it came up with. Found one hour ago.

Google really likes this forum.

edit: Here's a link to a part of "The Chomsky - Casey - Hitchens Debate". Other parts are listed at the bottom in no apparent order. I'm not willing to untangle it.
 
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Well, the part where Chomsky gets "owned" or "destroyed" must come later, because here we see him alive and kicking just like back in the days with Buckley, Jr. - same accusations, same answer, same logic:

Noam Chomsky said:
I will add only one comment, which, although a truism, is perhaps worth noting, since some, at least, do not seem to comprehend it. To begin with, if we are even minimally serious, we apply to ourselves the standards we rightly apply to others: more precisely, harsher standards, because it is our actions for which we are responsible and that we can modify. In the case of official enemies who have committed crimes, we count not only those who they personally murdered, but those who died as a consequence of their acts.

To move from abstract to concrete, consider the crimes of Communism in the 20th century. These have received enormous publicity, reaching a peak with the publication of the "Black Book" in France and then in the US, with major reviews in early 2000 expressing amazement and horror at the depths to which humans can descend. The centerpiece of the accusation was the Chinese famine of 1958-61, which accounted for 1/3 of the grim total. Of course, no one supposed that Mao literally murdered tens of millions of people, or that he "intended" that any die at all.

Rather, these crimes were the outcome of institutional and ideological structures of the Maoist system, as discussed in the primary scholarly work on the topic by Nobel laureate Amartya Sen and his colleague Jean Dreze. These charges are unchallenged, and rightly so. I will not elaborate because I have done so elsewhere in a ZNet commentary in January 2000, reprinted and extended in _Rogue States_.

It is taken for granted, rightly of course, that the crimes are not mitigated by the obvious lack of intent. These are crimes that flow from deep-seated institutional and ideological structures, like the bombing of the Sudan, and innumerable more severe cases. Nor would the worst of the crimes of Communism be mitigated in the slightest if it were discovered that something in Mao's personal life might have had some role in the orders that led to the crime (as is speculated, dubiously in my view, with regard to this minor crime of the Clinton administration).

If anyone were to argue, in extenuation, that Mao did not personally kill or intend to kill the victims, or that the crime that is the centerpiece of the indictment of Communism is mitigated by the fact that it was a failure of information (as Sen and Dreze argue) or had to do with something in Mao's personal life, they would be dismissed with contempt as apologists for atrocities. And if these apologists actually shared the responsibility for the crimes, as Casey does in the present case, the judgment would be far harsher, and rightly.

I will not insult the intelligence of readers by spelling out the conclusions that follow at once for the case at hand.
 

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