The Heiwa Challenge

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Heiwa said:
We all agree that the WTC towers were destroyed on 911. Question is if it were the tops crushing the lower parts by gravity. It does not appear so in the videos in my opinion! So the purpose of The Heiwa Challenge is to confirm if any structure behaves like that. Can a little top part crush down the complete, bigger, lower part by gravity alone? Just a little drop!

So far nobody has been able to present a suitable structure. Pls do not propose the WTC structures as your proposed candidates for obvious reasons. They are already destroyed.
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Why not? What does it look like to you?

To me, the WTC tower collapses definitely look like the top crushed the bottom.

The WTC towers themselves seem to qualify for the Heiwa Challenge, aside from the small theoretical weight discrepancies I pointed out above.

There are many different angles from many different cameras taken by different people, so it obviously happened as people picture it. No foul play. Why would the WTC towers not qualify for the Heiwa Challenge?
 
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willhaven said:
Why would the WTC towers not qualify for the Heiwa Challenge?
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See conditions in post #1. Or read http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm .

Re WTC towers a proper forensic analysis of the rubble is still lacking. Big pieces of the original structure, e.g. external perimeter wall columns/spandrels panel assemblies, were not crushed-down at all. They are sometimes 10 floors high and 1/3 of the original wall wide and can be seen being pushed out sideways during the destruction, i.e. cut both at top and bottom. Some hit ground like spears and can be seen sticking up afterwards.

Same for the core columns; you can see in the rubble that they have been cut by heat and that they have not been ripped apart by overload/gravity forces. Actually, the only way to destroy the core structure steel columns is to cut them at regular intervals (controlled demolition style). Nothing can drop on the core causing any damage there!

And one result of cutting internal core columns and regular intervals is that external perimeter column panels pop out ... as seen on all videos.

So. Sorry. The WTC Towers do not qualify for The Heiwa Challenge.
 
Heiwa said:
1. The structure is supposed to have a certain cross area A and height h and is fixed on the ground. The structure is an assembly of various elements of any type. It can be any size!
2. The structure should be more or less identical from h = 0 to h = h, e.g. uniform density, layout of internal elements, etc. Horizontal elements in structure should be identical. Vertical, load carrying elements should be similar and be uniformly stressed due to gravity, i.e. bottom vertical elements may be reinforced or made a little stronger, if required. Connections between elements should be similar throughout.
3. It is recognized that the structure may be a little higher stressed at h=0 than h=h due to uniform density, elements, etc.
4. Before drop test the structure shall be stable, i.e. carry itself and withstand a small lateral impact at top without falling apart. Connections between elements cannot rely solely on friction.
5. Before test 1/10th of the structure is disconnected at the top at h = 0.9 h without damaging the structure.
6. The lower structure, 0.9 h high is then called part A. The top part, 0.1 h high, is called part C.
7. Mass of part C should be <1/9th of mass of part A.
8. Now drop part C on part A and crush part A (if you can! That's the test).
9. In order to easily repeat the test/challenge drop height should be <1.1 h, i.e. C can only be dropped from 2h above ground on A that is 0.9 h high.
10. Structure is only considered crushed, when >70% of the elements in part A are disconnected from each other after test, i.e. drop by part C on A.
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Heiwa, can you help me out and specify which one of these that the examples given to you recently don't comply with? It would really help this non-engineer. Thanks.
 
JohnG said:
Can you remind me of what the Heiwa Challenge is meant to prove then in regards to the 9/11 attacks on the WTC?
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See post #1.

Or, you can fly as many planes as you like into the tops of towers with steel structures or put tops of towers with steel structure on fire and ... there is no risk what so ever that the towers suddenly one way crush down collapses down to ground in millions of pieces.

Anybody suggesting something else is complicity to mass murder.

Thanks for letting me remind you what The Heiwa Challenge is really about.
 
Heiwa said:
See post #1.

Or, you can fly as many planes as you like into the tops of towers with steel structures or put tops of towers with steel structure on fire and ... there is no risk what so ever that the towers suddenly one way crush down collapses down to ground in millions of pieces.
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Yet the towers collapsed and you are a no-claimer as to why reality doesn't match your fiction.
 
Heiwa said:
See conditions in post #1. Or read http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm .

Re WTC towers a proper forensic analysis of the rubble is still lacking. Big pieces of the original structure, e.g. external perimeter wall columns/spandrels panel assemblies, were not crushed-down at all. They are sometimes 10 floors high and 1/3 of the original wall wide and can be seen being pushed out sideways during the destruction, i.e. cut both at top and bottom. Some hit ground like spears and can be seen sticking up afterwards.

Same for the core columns; you can see in the rubble that they have been cut by heat and that they have not been ripped apart by overload/gravity forces. Actually, the only way to destroy the core structure steel columns is to cut them at regular intervals (controlled demolition style). Nothing can drop on the core causing any damage there!

And one result of cutting internal core columns and regular intervals is that external perimeter column panels pop out ... as seen on all videos.

So. Sorry. The WTC Towers do not qualify for The Heiwa Challenge.
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Nothing can crush straight down. Even stomping on a beer can causes the sides to move inward or outward to some degree. The fact that the side cladding fell outward isn't evidence of controlled demolition.

Also, the cuts you saw on the supports were made as the debris was being removed from the site. Some of the pieces were so large that they had to be cut up before removal. Cutting them at an angle with a torch allows you to make them fall in a predictable and safe way. I've still never seen any images proven to be taken before debris removal that show these cuts.

The problem with the Heiwa Challenge is that you immediately assume that what really happened could not have happened and you attempt to remove important elements of what happened that day in order to lend some credence to a controlled demolition theory. A theory which has zero actual evidence to support it.

If I built a 1:10 scale WTC. If I painstakingly reconstruct it to scale, cut out the plane impact area, set fire to the structure and it collapses exactly like the WTC, you'll say that it doesn't qualify for the Heiwa Challenge because there was a fire and because the side cladding fell outward.

But at the WTC there was a fire and the cladding did fall outward. Omitting those two things from the equation makes the Heiwa Challenge irrelevant in regards to proving or disproving WTC collapse theories.

I maintain that the Heiwa Challenge is either inherently flawed, or that the WTC towers should qualify. Part C of both towers obviously crushed Part A. In 100% of perfect examples, we have almost 100% crush-down observed. :)
 
Hey Heiwa, question. Here we have a building in which the walls have been pulled out, allowing a small top section to begin falling.

Please give your prediction for what will happen to both the upper and lower sections. The building is approximately 14 floors high.

2nhe33s.jpg
 
Heiwa said:
there is no risk what so ever that the towers suddenly one way crush down collapses down to ground in millions of pieces.
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Of course they wouldn't suddenly and spontaneously collapse. If you work an airliner traveling about 600mph slamming into the building and partially severing important structural elements and also work a raging fire into the equation, a crush-down seems to happen 100% of the time in these cases. :)
 
Heiwa said:
See post #1.

Or, you can fly as many planes as you like into the tops of towers with steel structures or put tops of towers with steel structure on fire and ... there is no risk what so ever that the towers suddenly one way crush down collapses down to ground in millions of pieces.

Anybody suggesting something else is complicity to mass murder.

Thanks for letting me remind you what The Heiwa Challengeis really about.
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And here it is.

When all else fails, when you have been exposed as a complete fraud over and over again, when you are unable to answer your critics, when you unable to back up a single claim you have made, when your bogus challenge is completely destroyed. Simply forget all engineering principles, forget physics and let the mask slip, for lucking behind the mask is the agenda driven nobody who throws a hissy fit because rather than fall for his drivel members here demand he substantiate his claims. To date you have failed and you will continue to fail because this is all you have, your anger and agenda, directed at those that simply destroy you.

You have nothing.
 
Heiwa said:
See post #1.

Or, you can fly as many planes as you like into the tops of towers with steel structures or put tops of towers with steel structure on fire and ... there is no risk what so ever that the towers suddenly one way crush down collapses down to ground in millions of pieces.

Anybody suggesting something else is complicity to mass murder.

Thanks for letting me remind you what The Heiwa Challenge is really about.
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I'm sorry...

but since you have redefined the challenge so many times, i thought you stated rather emphatically that 49% couldn't crush down 51%.

I'd swear you said it, but I don't feel like going through your idiocy for the 50 pages of this thread.

Now you are shift shift shifting to the 15% can't crush down 85%? ReallY?

ROFLMAO.

And the complicit in mass murder... damn that is rather weak isn't it.

But hey, if you have proof of those mass murders, that makes you an accomplice because you haven't taken it to the proper authorities...

are you feeling :boxedin:?
 
Why don't we discuss Top Down Collapse here? Or maybe, since we're really talking about gravity-driven (no explosives), top down collapse, it's better to do a thread with that title.
I'm going to do just that.

Gravity doesn't care if a building starts to collapse from fire, earthquake, explosives, hydraulics or cables. Collapse can be initiated thru many mechanisms.

We should kill these Red Herrings. I prefer Salmon anyway. ;)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152382
 
Heiwa said:
See post #1.

Or, you can fly as many planes as you like into the tops of towers with steel structures or put tops of towers with steel structure on fire and ... there is no risk what so ever that the towers suddenly one way crush down collapses down to ground in millions of pieces.

Anybody suggesting something else is complicity to mass murder.

Thanks for letting me remind you what The Heiwa Challenge is really about.
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Sorry, maybe I'm just slow on the uptake (wouldn't be the first time), but if not even the WTC towers themselves are eligible for the Heiwa Challenge, what has the Heiwa Challenge have to do with the 9/11 attacks on said towers? Why does this thread appear in the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories sub forum and not, say the Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology forum?
 
Lads, we're talking about the man who got caught talking bollocks about Ronan Point - a nice progressive collapse - and is avoiding the thread about it like a plague. He's just a troll.
 
Okay, guys, now this really is sad. Faced with overwhelming evidence in the form the recent videos of these French crush-down demolitions, Heiwa has simple retreated into fantasy land. He's either just trolling, or has finally reached "Realistice" levels of insanity.

If these incredibly obvious, real-world examples cannot convince him that the WTC collapses were physically possible, nothing we can ever say will ever convince him. I'm putting him on ignore. If anyone else ever comes around citing his "axiom" as some sort of proof, all we need do is link him to AE's new thread. Anyone who cannot see the evidence for themselves will not see anything else.


And to Heiwa: You really need to get help. I hope that some day, you wake up far enough to realize that yourself, and actually go and get that help.
 
willhaven said:
AA. Nothing can crush straight down. Even stomping on a beer can causes the sides to move inward or outward to some degree. The fact that the side cladding fell outward isn't evidence of controlled demolition.

BB. Also, the cuts you saw on the supports were made as the debris was being removed from the site. Some of the pieces were so large that they had to be cut up before removal. Cutting them at an angle with a torch allows you to make them fall in a predictable and safe way. I've still never seen any images proven to be taken before debris removal that show these cuts.

CC. The problem with the Heiwa Challenge is that you immediately assume that what really happened could not have happened and you attempt to remove important elements of what happened that day in order to lend some credence to a controlled demolition theory. A theory which has zero actual evidence to support it.

DD. If I built a 1:10 scale WTC. If I painstakingly reconstruct it to scale, cut out the plane impact area, set fire to the structure and it collapses exactly like the WTC, you'll say that it doesn't qualify for the Heiwa Challenge because there was a fire and because the side cladding fell outward.

EE. But at the WTC there was a fire and the cladding did fall outward. Omitting those two things from the equation makes the Heiwa Challenge irrelevant in regards to proving or disproving WTC collapse theories.

FF. I maintain that the Heiwa Challenge is either inherently flawed, or that the WTC towers should qualify. Part C of both towers obviously crushed Part A. In 100% of perfect examples, we have almost 100% crush-down observed. :)
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Thanks for your interest in The Heiwa Challenge! When will you enter your structure?

AA. According FEMA, NIST, Bazant and Mackey (??) crushing is straight down. That big, heavy, perimeter wall panels/spandrels assemblies were pushed out from a 95% air structure is 100% evidence of controlled demolition.

BB. No, all cuts of core columns seen in the rubble is prior clean up. I wonder how FEMA/FBI/NIST missed that!

CC. As have said many times. A structure cannot be crushed down by dropping a piece on it = The Björkman Axiom. Google for more details.

DD. If? If? You can do what you like!

EE. I do not understand! Fire, cladding fell outward??? Equation? Pls, clarify.

FF. The Heiwa Challenge is clear and simple. The WTC towers may qualify if the designers comply with post # 1. In my view part C of both towers are destroyed long before the parts A are destroyed. You can see it on all videos. I know Bazant has another opinion; C crushing down A producing part B(azant) before B crushes up C.

What's your opinion about B(azant)? What part does it/he plays in this mass murder? And yourself? What is your agenda?
 
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