Rationing Health Care - it's a lie!

...

(You could argue that only applies to insured people in the USA, that someone could pay for any treatment they wanted, but that would also apply to any argument about health-care in the UK.)
You see my point.

In regards to paying for something, while a lot of people have an emotional block to paying for things outside their insurance coverage, I have done it several times, myself. I paid for second opinions by going to doctors outside my HMO on at least 2 occasions that I recall. And I paid for an elective surgery that wasn't covered.
 
You described something akin to the flu vaccine shortages.

Yes I did. Access to surgeons is rationed because there is not enough money in the budget to train or hire more surgeons.

I am calling BS on the false representation of this debate which is occurring when people are calling choices to buy or not buy a certain level of health care, rationing. It is totally dishonest.

The government only has a limited budget for health care - some types of healthcare don't get covered, some people have to wait for access, some people have to travel to major centres to access health care etc. Ideally access is prioritised by health need just as in your flu vaccine case but it still seems to be rationing.

If you want to mount a counterargument then you would suggest that a government run system ought to prioritise access to those with the most pressing health needs but people who don't want to wait or prefer a higher level of service (individual wards or a better choice of meals or whatever) can still pay to go private or use their private health insurance. If that means that some needy people receive healthcare that they wouldn't currently receive then taxes may have to increase (assuming there are no cost savings to be made) but businesses will be better off as they won't need to pay as much for health coverage for their employees and families may also choose not to spend so much of their income on private health cover.
 
She needs to portray the people she doesn't like as persecutors who are useful idiots of the right wing spin machine.

Hence, people can't simply disagree with her. They are part of the framing effort.

In phase3 she adopts a tinfoil hat to keep the framing out.
That's your version anyway.

Mine is seeing the bigger picture in the manipulating messages science. Words matter. They influence people. Sometimes words are chosen purposefully to influence people to believe false things. That's the nature of propaganda and marketing science.
 
Also:

.

Rationing is done by a "third party".
Who is the third party we pay or defer to, to decide what car we can or can't have?
You have this backward. Who is the third party that is telling you which health care plan you have to buy?
 
No, it is the fact that calling this rationing is dishonest in a debate of the matter.

I ask again, do we say we are rationing cars in this country because not everyone can afford a Porsche?
No, we don't. But under some definitions of the word, yes it qualifies as rationing.
Rationing conjures up an image of control. Claiming government rations health care is an attempt to falsely frame a loss of control over decisions regarding one's health care.
This is an important point, but there is some truth to that claim. Moving towards a nationalized health care will inevitably result in some of that. What decisions are reasonable to leave to the individual and what is reasonable to leave to the health care system? For example, should homeopathic medicines be supported?
You choose to buy certain coverage. The coverage is what it is. That is choosing what you are buying. Rationing is someone else choosing what you are going to get, including what you are able to buy. Your choice is not based on what you can afford, it is based on what someone says you have to take.
I'm fairly fortunate. I work for a State University. The benefits are excellent. I have a choice of 5 different health plans with various options for vision and dental coverage. I have no complaints about my coverage really, other than the cost. But the cost is a major problem! The health care industry consumers a huge percentage of our resources and it isn't the quality that countries like Norway or Canada have
I'm not quite sure I understand your point here. Are you saying this was rationing or it wasn't rationing?
Depends on the definition you're using. Not by yours, but yes in the same way that universal health care will result in some rationing. Personally, I don't care what we call it, let's discuss what's reasonable for our society to provide to our citizens.

So, is the government then telling you what health care you can get (rationing) or are you choosing what health care you are going to buy (not rationing)?

Fox takes the rationing lie 10 steps further into the BS zone.[/QUOTE]

That's why 5 minutes is as much as I can stand.
 
You have this backward. Who is the third party that is telling you which health care plan you have to buy?

You're not understanding. Nobody tells me which plan to buy, but the people in charge of the plan get to decide what kind of care is covered.

What sort of "plan" do you get on to have someone else decide what kind of car you can get?
Car buying is a direct transaction between the car seller and the car buyer. (aka- true free market)
Health insurance is a situation completely different, with third party payers dictating what kind of care one can receive and what the providers are compensated. (not free market)
 
Last edited:
Rationing conjures up an image of control. Claiming government rations health care is an attempt to falsely frame a loss of control over decisions regarding one's health care.
This is an important point, but there is some truth to that claim. Moving towards a nationalized health care will inevitably result in some of that.

See, I think, with something like NICE, the patient has MORE control over their healthcare than we in the US presently have, with insurance companies rationing care (whatever they have left to give out after paying wallstreet, anyway) in secret, in the dark, behind closed doors, not giving a hoot about actual patient needs.

Moving the rationing decisions from insurance companies to open and transparent gov is a way to regain control.
 
I don't understand the fuss about all this, does any sane person think their isn't rationing of Health Care in private systems??

One system tends to ration on clinical need the other on how much the patient can afford. I prefer the former but thats just me.
The point is, the term, rationing, refers to the former but not the latter.

The idea with framing is to manipulate beliefs without being noticed that you are indeed manipulating.

In some cases of framing, you could argue either way. Claiming people need tax relief is a particular framing intended to inspire thinking of taxes as a burden. But those same taxes pay for services people need. You are not likely to see anyone claiming we need tax relief from payments going to provide emergency medical services. That would counter the manipulating message of framing taxes as a burden. People don't see something as a burden they need. They see it as buying EM Services, a good thing.


As far as the NHS being a rationer of medical services, the public could say (and I imagine they occasionally do) they want to pay for more services. If there were a doctor shortage the public would be more likely to approve a pay hike to draw more surgeons into the field. In the meantime, a shortage of surgeons would indeed require rationing and it would be appropriate to call that government rationing health care.

It's a bit of a finer line between rationing services when there is a shortage of providers and limiting coverage because the tax payers didn't approve of the expenditure. The difference would go away if the NHS was the only game in town. But if people had a choice to buy more care than the government covered, it really shouldn't be framed as rationing. It should be framed as, this is all that is covered under the government plan. That is what individuals have purchased with their tax dollars. It is not what the government rationed to them.
 
Last edited:
The problem with the OP is that it leads to a faulty reply to opponents of universal health systems.

Proponents of partial cover systems say: "Well UHC means rationing!" in some attempt to scare folks or whatever. But if someone then tries to defend UHC with: "No it isn't rationed" then they can readily be shown to be incorrect, and so their "defence" is the kind that is needed like a hole in the head, and which might be expected more from foes.
I think I've been pretty clear what isn't rationing. You are not addressing that, you are ignoring it.

Is it rationing when a consumer chooses to buy a certain health care plan?
 
Well you and the judge that wrote that opinion are poorly informed about what HMOs are all about. The concept began in the late 70s with some people in the health care field trying to change to a wellness centered care model from an illness centered model. Rationing is absolutely not what HMOs are all about.

Yeah, selling it like that sounds a lot sexier than "healthcare rationing scheme", doesn't it?
 
...
This is an important point, but there is some truth to that claim. Moving towards a nationalized health care will inevitably result in some of that. What decisions are reasonable to leave to the individual and what is reasonable to leave to the health care system? For example, should homeopathic medicines be supported?
This has nothing to do with rationing. The loss of decision making here is over who decides what to include in the plan, but it isn't rationing health care.

The police (here) won't respond to traffic violations in a parking lot. If you run the stop sign in a parking lot, believe it or not, it is not a ticketable offense. If you hit someone you are liable but you still wouldn't get a traffic citation.

Does anyone see that as the government rationing police services?
 
But taxes are a burden. I need and want food but I don't feel good when grocery prices go up. If you are in favour of expanded government then you should talk up the fact that people receive benefits for their tax dollars. If you are in favour of limited government then you talk up the cost and the inefficiencies involved. Neither is false.

A national health service creates a new buying pool that everyone has to join, paid for by taxes and with the government being responsible for what services to provide and what premium (in the form of taxes or co-payments) to charge.

People will, presumably, still be able to join their existing buying pools or still go outside any buying pool but, presumably, less people will feel the need to do so.

The issue for many people is what quality of care will they receive compared to what they currently receive and how much will they pay in terms of taxes and health costs not covered by the government. If people feel the change is too risky or that their expenses will go up by too much relative to the extra benefits they receive then they won't support the change.

Maybe you should be emphasising that you believe that a basic level of health care is something that the government should provide just like EMT or police or military services.
 
Does anyone see that as the government rationing police services?

If it is done for jurisdictional reasons - no. For budgetary reasons - yes. But I am not sure what that has to do with the topic of discussion.
 
But if someone then tries to defend UHC with: "No it isn't rationed" then they can readily be shown to be incorrect, and so their "defence" is the kind that is needed like a hole in the head, and which might be expected more from foes.

Indeed.



http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/18/w...es-on-a-health-care-taboo.html?pagewanted=all



The case, Pegram v. Herdrich, concerned a woman whose appendix burst after she was made to wait eight days to take a diagnostic test for abdominal pain. She contended that her H.M.O., which, like many health plans, gave doctors financial incentives to hold down costs, improperly restricted patients' access to medical procedures.

The court's decision for the health plan made blunt comments about the role of H.M.O.'s in rationing care. Such rationing, the court said, is intrinsic to the design and mission of H.M.O.'s, blessed by Congress since 1973. Writing for a unanimous court, Justice David H. Souter said, ''No H.M.O. organization could survive without some incentive connecting physician reward with treatment rationing.''

Whatever the form of an H.M.O., ''there must be rationing and inducement to ration'' care, Justice Souter declared. Such inducements, he said, especially ''the profit incentive to ration care,'' go ''to the very point of any H.M.O. scheme.'' If plaintiffs could challenge such incentives in federal court, he said, it would open the courts to ''wholesale attacks'' on H.M.O.'s.



Some people -- ethicists, mainly -- have suggested that doctors should talk more openly about cost as a factor in medical decisions.

''Bedside rationing must be done with intelligence and fairness,'' said Dr. Steven D. Pearson, director of the Center for Ethics in Managed Care at Harvard Medical School. ''Rationing of medical services by individual doctors is both necessary and good. People want unlimited medical care without unlimited spending. If you are going to limit health care spending, you must consciously allocate resources and say no to some beneficial services while trying to use the money available to produce the greatest good.''

Moreover, Dr. Pearson said, ''We can be more up front in talking to patients about rationing, just as we learned that we can talk to them about the reality of cancer and imminent death.''



Did Justice Souter use the word ''rationing'' in a purposeful way, to educate the public and foster a more candid debate? Or was he just unfamiliar with the word's negative connotations?

Professor Bloche said: ''I think Justice Souter knew exactly what he was doing. The court is trying to shape the debate and make it more honest.'' In effect, Mr. Bloche said, the court was saying to the American people: ''Wake up. Health plans are holding down costs by denying beneficial care. The essence of the H.M.O. concept is rationing.''

On the other hand, Alan D. Bloom, senior vice president and general counsel of Maxicare Health Plans, a managed care company in Los Angeles, said: ''The court did not understand the use of the word 'ration.' It's an unfortunate word, which implies that needed care is being cut back. I'd call it changing the incentives, or changing the site of care, as medically appropriate.''

The for-profit third party payers are indeed "framing" the debate around the word "rationing". They want you to believe it doesn't exist in the USA and that they have no need to, and would never anyway, do such a thing.

That's the gimmick. It's THE most fundamental part of their spiel. Illuminate the fact that they do ration, moreso than UHC governments, even, and they are really up that creek without a paddle.
 
Last edited:
I'd rather have the government ration health care based on needs instead of the health-insurance companies rationing health care based on profits.
 
Yes I did. Access to surgeons is rationed because there is not enough money in the budget to train or hire more surgeons.

I'd like to mount a counterargument. The counterargument is that you've decided to treat surgeons like masseurs or luxury cars.

Now I personally would love a really high end car. Even just a nice S40 with some turbo action would make me very happy. And I would love to get a massage today. If the government handed out luxury cars or massages, they would HAVE to be rationed.

I don't have any strong desire to wake up tomorrow and go in and get triple bypass surgery. In fact I'd really love to avoid triple bypass surgery for my entire life.

Surgery is not like other goods. If there are enough doctors to perform all the bypass surgeries that need to be done, more doctors does NOTHING. Therefore surgery does NOT automatically become rationed in the system outlined.

Your goal is to discover why, suddenly, lifesaving surgeries would become rationed. Working assumptions - finite and predictable number of surgeries per year, no one who doesn't need a surgery gets one, discover if there's rationing, go! Hint, you'll fail miserably. In neither system is surgery something that is rationed. By deciding to become specific when we were talking in general, you belied your knowledge of the specifics. Listen to Twain.
 
In neither system is surgery something that is rationed.

I'd be surprised if that's true. For at least some things that can be operated on, there are probably cheaper and almost equally effective alternatives that are probably strongly encouraged in both systems.
I don't expect to be taken for my word without a specific example, though.
I'll look around and see what I can find.

ETA:
http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/news/september-2008/obesity-surgery-rationing1027/
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1485481


I'm having a harder time finding examples from the US, so a little "between the lines" reading is necessary, since "HMO's don't ration"...

But...

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/Insig...Type=Article&hdAction=lnkpdf&contentId=841001
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/329/24/1784
 
Last edited:
I'd be surprised if that's true. For at least some things that can be operated on, there are probably cheaper and almost equally effective alternatives that are probably strongly encouraged in both systems.
I don't expect to be taken for my word without a specific example, though.
I'll look around and see what I can find.

There are alternatives to surgery that are frequently used. This is done for good reason. Whenever you cut open a human body, you have a non-negligible chance that your patient will end up dead. Start fooling around with major organs, and this chance rises. This is bad.

There are things that are rationed. Organ transplants. Research money. MRI/Ultrasound usage. And so on and so forth. You can use all of them as good, good examples of rationing. Surgery? Not so much.
 
As I said, we have waiting lists for elective (i.e. not immediately life threatening but still necessary) surgery in our government run health system because there are not enough surgeons to ensure that everyone has access to a surgeon straight away.

The government rations access to surgeons according to immediate need.
 
As I said, we have waiting lists for elective (i.e. not immediately life threatening but still necessary) surgery in our government run health system because there are not enough surgeons to ensure that everyone has access to a surgeon straight away.

The government rations access to surgeons according to immediate need.
The other day I called to get my car fixed. They didn't have time for me until Tuesday.

My car fixing wasn't rationed. It just wasn't available for a bit. You totally have no idea what rationing is, which is kinda sad, but does explain this discussion.

Rationed would be "You have a lousy car, you can't get it fixed." This DOES happen with organ donors - doctors judge patients chances of survival and their expected lifespan with the donate organ before performing surgery. Those who don't get organs DIE. This does NOT happen in what you're describing.
 

Back
Top Bottom