Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

Marc39 said:
Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.
Click to expand...

how? by all those things you keep ignoring or belive to be justified
 
Marc39 said:
As your hero, Benny Morris, has written, the nakba was the fault of the Arabs. Need I already re-post Morris's comments, given your penchant for misrepresenting him and your warped view of history?
Click to expand...

War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war.

Testy! First, Morris was your hero when you thought he believed Israel had a governmental policy of mass Arab expulsion.
Click to expand...

Never my hero.
I used the phrase: "Historians from both sides of the political spectrum" to indicate that even people whose politics is entirely different to my own agree on certain facts. You should try widening your outlook a bit. It will help you see past the politics of a very political conflict.

I claimed that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. Morris does indeed agree with that. You'll have to learn to live with it.

Here's a clue for you, since you are without one: Ben-Gurion wore two hats during the 1948 War, as BOTH Prime Minister and Minister of Defense. When Ben-Gurion ordered the Israeli military to evacuate Arabs, it was for MILITARY reasons, NOT for POLITICAL reasons.
Click to expand...

Are you now claiming that the minister of defense is not part of the government? Is that what your defense has fallen down to?

Massacres were perpetrated by Arabs before the war even started. The Hebron Massacre happened in 1929, which you, no doubt, are also unaware of.
Click to expand...

Unlike you I don't try to hide or deny historical facts.
 
Marc39 said:
Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.
Click to expand...

You want us to explain the Nakba without reference to "obscure military operations during the '48 War"? On what basis do you decide what is obscure?

One person reads Morris' answer to the question: "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?" and understands the meaning of "Nakba" -- the other person asks "so what's this about a catastrophe?"
 
FireGarden said:
War crimes are war crimes even if you didn't start the war.
Click to expand...

The PLO and Hamas charters are violations of the laws against genocide and terrorism. Let's start there. No need to go back 60 years in history.

I claimed that Morris agrees that Arabs were expelled by the Israeli government. Morris does indeed agree with that. You'll have to learn to live with it.
Click to expand...

Populations are displaced during war. 350,000 Iraqis were displaced during the battles in Fallujah. 10,000 buildings were demolished and another 25,000 buildings were smashed. Guess what? It's war and war isn't pretty. But, the blame for the consequences suffered by the Arabs is squarely on their heads since they initiated the war. You snooze, you lose.

e you now claiming that the minister of defense is not part of the government? Is that what your defense has fallen down to?
Click to expand...

Ben-Gurion made both military decisions and political deciisons. When Arab expulsions occurred, they were to gain military advantage, which is the objective of war, and not to expel for the purposes of eliminating an Arab population in the nascent state of Israel. Ben-Gurion knew UN Res. 181 called for an Arab minority in Israel. Plus, 181 authorized the creation of an Arab/Palestinian state nearby, so, expulsion was not even necessary.

Unlike you I don't try to hide or deny historical facts.
Click to expand...

What world are you living in?
 
Marc39 said:
Ben-Gurion made both military decisions and political deciisons. When Arab expulsions occurred, they were to gain military advantage, which is the objective of war, and not to expel for the purposes of eliminating an Arab population in the nascent state of Israel.
Click to expand...

Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed.
 
FireGarden said:
Ben-Gurion and other figures from Israel's government expelled Arabs. Therefore, regardless of why they did it, they expelled Arabs. Exactly as I claimed.
Click to expand...

Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation. What you seemingly are unable to discern is the significant difference between individual, tactical expulsions for military gain, which are not unique, and one widespread, mass Zionist-directed expulsion of Arabs for political gain. I don't think such a distinction can be made any clearer without resorting to using pictures and baby talk.
 
Marc39 said:
Sure, Arabs were expelled. This is not a great revelation. What you seemingly are unable to discern is the significant difference between individual, tactical expulsions for military gain, which are not unique, and one widespread, mass Zionist-directed expulsion of Arabs for political gain.
Click to expand...

My claim was this:
Historians from all over the political spectrum -- from Benny Morris to Ilan Pappe -- agree that Arabs were forced out by the Israeli government.

You said I misrepresented Morris. It turns out you are wrong. I did not misrepresent Morris, since he does agree that the Israeli government expelled Arabs.


Thank you,
Goodnight.
 
“Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949”

“During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
 
Last edited:
Marc39 said:
Yes, becoming informed on Middle Eastern affairs is "nice" But, given this thread pertains to the so-called nakba, and, not rather obscure military operations during the '48 War, let's stay on-topic and have you explain to us, specifically, how Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs.
Click to expand...
oh dearly me, how many times do you have to be told? I don't hold with the view "Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs" A 5 year old would understand that its pointless stalking someone with requests to provide justification for something they have not proposed. Do you understand this simple concept?

I have asked you to quote where I have expressed this opinion and you can't.

Look Mark39 I know its probably one of the pre-packaged arguments you begged off the members on the Israel forum but if you want to try letting it out for a run on this forum first find someone who has actually stated the things it is ment to argue against.

I know its frustrating to have the best original argument you have ever borrowed not be usable but tough....find someone who expresses the views your borrowed position argues against.

Just curious about another thing...You tell the people over there that you are not well informed on the middle east and need them to help you with arguments you can use on JREF members (even pleading with them not to tell JREF members about the Israel forum )....good god man...why do you tell them you are ill informed?? why don't you tell them about your Princeton degree and your study under eminent professors? I'm sure they would like to know that they have such a middle east scholar among them.....They might wonder (like I do) why you get so many basic facts wrong but hey....maybe you were not at your sharpest the day that particular thing was covered at princeton...



...know what marc39? You are the funniest thing that has blown through here for a while, I'm going to miss you when you are gone.

But all good things must come to an end so goodbye for now, I'll be back to correct your next major factual error Mr Princeton grad......
 
The Fool said:
oh dearly me, how many times do you have to be told? I don't hold with the view "Israel has been a nakba, or catastrophe, for the Arabs" A 5 year old would understand that its pointless stalking someone with requests to provide justification for something they have not proposed. Do you understand this simple concept?

I have asked you to quote where I have expressed this opinion and you can't.

Look Mark39 I know its probably one of the pre-packaged arguments you begged off the members on the Israel forum but if you want to try letting it out for a run on this forum first find someone who has actually stated the things it is ment to argue against.

I know its frustrating to have the best original argument you have ever borrowed not be usable but tough....find someone who expresses the views your borrowed position argues against.

Just curious about another thing...You tell the people over there that you are not well informed on the middle east and need them to help you with arguments you can use on JREF members (even pleading with them not to tell JREF members about the Israel forum )....good god man...why do you tell them you are ill informed?? why don't you tell them about your Princeton degree and your study under eminent professors? I'm sure they would like to know that they have such a middle east scholar among them.....They might wonder (like I do) why you get so many basic facts wrong but hey....maybe you were not at your sharpest the day that particular thing was covered at princeton...



...know what marc39? You are the funniest thing that has blown through here for a while, I'm going to miss you when you are gone.

But all good things must come to an end so goodbye for now, I'll be back to correct your next major factual error Mr Princeton grad......
Click to expand...

Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done.
 
Last edited:
Marc39 said:
Your post wallows in an alarming level of delusion. In any case, I forced you into conceding youi know nothing about the nakba and that you cannot explain how Israel has been a nakba. And, of course, Israel has not been so. Thus, my work is done.
Click to expand...

oh dear. Marc you do realise that for you and other ISraelis, Israel was surely not a nakba. but for others it was one.

For the Nazis, the Holocaust was not a Nakba, but for the jews and roma etc it was a nakba.

For white people the time of slavery was not a catastrophe, but sure for Black it was.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
oh dear. Marc you do realise that for you and other ISraelis, Israel was surely not a nakba. but for others it was one.
Click to expand...

How so? After hundreds of posts, nobody, yet, can say. So much for the whole idiotic concept.

For the Nazis, the Holocaust was not a Nakba, but for the jews and roma etc it was a nakba.
Click to expand...

You suffer from the inability to discern between historical fact and historical propaganda.
 
Marc39 said:
How so? After hundreds of posts, nobody, yet, can say. So much for the whole idiotic concept.



You suffer from the inability to discern between historical fact and historical propaganda.
Click to expand...

erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them.

in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore?

you have an inability to understand other point of views.

you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them.

in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore?

you have an inability to understand other point of views.

you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.
Click to expand...

should religous people stop calling earthquakes, catastrophes? because such an earthquake is God's will.
 
and the creation of Israel was and is a catastrophe. Look, more than 60 years later there is still a huge armed conflict going on. that is a catastrophe. and some do blame the Israelis or Jews for it, i dont but still it is a catastrophe.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
erm yes it has been shown. you even agree on it. while you blame the Arab leaders for it, the Palestinians blame israel for it. but even if the Palestinians would also blame Arab leaders for it, it still is a Nakba for them.

in a catastrophe car accident, when it turns out someone else is to blame for the accident, is it then not a catastrophe anymore?

you have an inability to understand other point of views.

you also said a war is not pretty and in a war people get displaced. and for those displaced, it is a nakba, no matter wo is to blame for it.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. Israel has been a huge plus for Arabs. The presence of a democratic state that embraces human rights and civil liberties, while despised for being a "Zionist entity", puts pressure on the brutal and repressive Arab dictatorships for reform.

Additionally, historically, had Israel not existed, there likely would not be even a chance for Palestinian statehood.

Arabs should thank Israel and Jews instead of cursing them.
 
Marc39 said:
I don't agree. Israel has been a huge plus for Arabs. The presence of a democratic state that embraces human rights and civil liberties, while despised for being a "Zionist entity", puts pressure on the brutal and repressive Arab dictatorships for reform.

Additionally, historically, had Israel not existed, there likely would not be even a chance for Palestinian statehood.

Arabs should thank Israel and Jews instead of cursing them.
Click to expand...

yes thanks for demonstrating your inability to understand other points of view.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom