Israel bans use of word "Nakba" in textbooks

[Pardalis]

I didn't compare them at all,

Yes you just did.

As usual, the argument quickly turns into personal attacks.

But you are a moral relativist.

 

[linusrichard]

You call the Holocaust a "bad time"?

Damned moral relativists, you have no idea of the scale of the atrocity. These events absolutely don't compare.

You're the one saying that people shouldn't worry about stuff that happened 60 years ago that can't be changed. You're the one saying people shouldn't complain about the Holocaust. Unless you're not, in which case, you should maybe qualify what you're saying.

 

[Pardalis]

You're the one saying that people shouldn't worry about stuff that happened 60 years ago that can't be changed.

The thing here that can't be changed is the existence of the state of Israel, just like there is nothing we can do about the injustice done to the native peoples of the Americas. Canada, the US and Mexico exist now.

We can still do something about the Holocaust, and that is to stop antisemitism and not allow for something to happen like this again.

You can't change the fact that a state now exists, but you can sure do something about the hatred and insanity behind genocide.

 

[linusrichard]

The thing here that can't be changed is the existence of the state of Israel, just like there is nothing we can do about the injustice done to the native peoples of the Americas. Canada, the US and Mexico exist now.

We can still do something about the Holocaust, and that is to stop antisemitism and not allow for something to happen like this again.

You can't change the fact that a state now exists, but you can sure do something about the hatred and insanity behind genocide.

You're using the same word to mean two different things. Stopping antisemitism today is a valuable thing, but it won't reach back into history and stop Hitler retroactively, and you know it.

 

[Pardalis]

You're using the same word to mean two different things. Stopping antisemitism today is a valuable thing, but it won't reach back into history and stop Hitler retroactively, and you know it.

No, a climate and environment rich with antisemitism existed way before Hitler arrived. It probably facilitated his arrival, and what happened afterwards.

We have to be conscious of that, that's why we must not forget the Holocaust, because there is an very vivid climate of antisemitism going on in that region.

 

[Towlie]

Except that's not exactly what happened, and not for the same reasons.

Then tell us exactly what happened. Are you saying the movie is inaccurate? What are you saying? Please explain yourself.

And

more happened afterwards that absolutely don't compare.

No, of course what happened afterward doesn't compare and I never attempted to compare it even if others did. I'm specifically addressing that one particular early aspect of the persecution of Jews that I mentioned, where Jews were evicted from their own homes so that Germans could move in.

 

[ddt]

The thing here that can't be changed is the existence of the state of Israel, just like there is nothing we can do about the injustice done to the native peoples of the Americas. Canada, the US and Mexico exist now.

We can still do something about the Holocaust, and that is to stop antisemitism and not allow for something to happen like this again.

You can't change the fact that a state now exists, but you can sure do something about the hatred and insanity behind genocide.

Huh? You're shifting the goal posts. The Holocaust happened ca. 60 years ago, the "Final Solution" of the Nazis. Current antisemitism is not part of the Holocaust. You can't do anything about that either, to use your own words: those ca. 6 mn. Jews are dead, and nothing changes that.

By comparison, the uprooting of the greater part of the Arab population of Israel can be undone in the sense that they, their children or grandchildren could be given a home in either Israel or the Territories.

I'm surprised no-one has yet mentioned how ludicrous the claims of the Israeli side in the debate about the contents of Palestinian textbooks sound in light of this measure. Not even one, factual sentence how most Arabs describe the 1948 war, is allowed - in textbooks for Israeli Arabs, the textbooks for Israeli Jews don't even mention this at all.

Basis for a peace with which the majority of the people on both sides can live is to understand the perception of the "other". Apparently, Netanyahu does not want that to happen on the Israeli side?

 

[Pardalis]

Then tell us exactly what happened. Are you saying the movie is inaccurate? What are you saying? Please explain yourself.

I'm not going to explain how the reasons behind the Holocaust are diametrically different than the reasons behind the creation of the State of Israel.

I'm not going to redo your education. You should have been awake during your history class.

Huh? You're shifting the goal posts. The Holocaust happened ca. 60 years ago, the "Final Solution" of the Nazis. Current antisemitism is not part of the Holocaust.

But it can lead to another.

You can't do anything about that either, to use your own words: those ca. 6 mn. Jews are dead, and nothing changes that.

Hey, you're comparing apples to oranges. A genocide and the creation of a state are not the same thing.

Basis for a peace with which the majority of the people on both sides can live is to understand the perception of the "other". Apparently, Netanyahu does not want that to happen on the Israeli side?

"Nakba" is used to keep the Palestinians resentful of the existence of Israel, as long as they see Israel as their Holocaust, they will never accept its existence and live side by side with it. The only way "Nabka" can be amended is for Israel to be destroyed.

To me, that doesn't sound constructive.

The word is a constant reminder that there is a state of injustice, and even war, between them. How can the two reconciliate this way?

 

[Towlie]

I'm not going to explain how the reasons behind the Holocaust are diametrically different than the reasons behind the creation of the State of Israel.

Thank you very much. I don't want you to and I never asked you to. However, I would appreciate it if you would explain what I actually asked you to explain.

I'm beginning to realize that you are deliberately misinterpreting my arguments and are responding with flagrant straw man responses, as if you expect the good folks here to naively fall for that and overlook your argumentative fallacies. Believe me, it's not going to work.

 

[Pardalis]

Thank you very much. I don't want you to and I never asked you to. However, I would appreciate it if you would explain what I actually asked you to explain.

I'm beginning to realize that you are deliberately misinterpreting my arguments and are responding with flagrant straw man responses, as if you expect the good folks here to naively fall for that and overlook your argumentative fallacies. Believe me, it's not going to work.

So to you:

The Holocaust = removing people from their homes
The creation of Israel = removing people from their homes

Sorry, I'm not going to entertain your simplistic and flawed view of history.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

So to you:

The Holocaust = removing people from their homes
The creation of Israel = removing people from their homes

Sorry, I'm not going to entertain your simplistic and flawed view of history.

But you just did. And isn't that boiled down view you give above essentially correct? In both cases, people were removed from their homes.

Creates resentment, doesn't it? Maybe it's never happened to you though. Maybe, nobody's ever come through your neighborhood and forced you to move out so others could take what was yours and then deny it was ever "really" yours to begin with.

 

[Pardalis]

And isn't that boiled down view you give above essentially correct?

No. Hell no.

 

[Pardalis]

Creates resentment, doesn't it?

And how does exactly commemorating that resentment going to help move forward and reconciliate? which is the original point I was agreeing with Marc, before we all got derailed into idiotic comparisons with the Holocaust.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

And how does exactly commemorating that resentment going to help move forward and reconciliate?

And how does "it happened to you (someone else) a long time ago, get over it already" help anything move forward or do anything to move people towards reconciliation?

which is the original point I was agreeing with Marc, before we all got derailed into idiotic comparisons with the Holocaust.

Many people, myself included, who have nothing against the Jewish people, see comparisons to be made. Israel has been guilty of oppression, and has used superior weaponry to force people from their homes, and given the land to their own. The comparisons are sadly obvious if you take your Israel-Does-No-Wrong goggles off.

 

[Pardalis]

And how does "it happened to you (someone else) a long time ago, get over it already" help anything move forward or do anything to move people towards reconciliation?

Will you answer my original question?

I'm not playing this game.

 

[ddt]

But it can lead to another.

That's a clear admission you're shifting the goalposts. The discussion was about the Holocaust, not about what it could lead to.

Hey, you're comparing apples to oranges. A genocide and the creation of a state are not the same thing.

No, you're calling an apple an orange. The Naqba refers to the ethnic cleansing of the Arabs, not to the declaration of independence of Israel.

"Nakba" is used to keep the Palestinians resentful of the existence of Israel, as long as they see Israel as their Holocaust, they will never accept its existence and live side by side with it. The only way "Nabka" can be amended is for Israel to be destroyed.

Evidence?

To me, that doesn't sound constructive.

The word is a constant reminder that there is a state of injustice, and even war, between them. How can the two reconciliate this way?

Again, evidence? The word refers to an historic fact. Is the name "Trail of Tears" a reminder of a state of injustice? And I'm sure that you, as a Canadian, or a_u_p as Australian, can come up with words used to describe the treatment of the native populations.

And how did the US, Canada, Australia cope with the injustice done to the native populations? By acknowledging the injustice, offering apologies and programs to address their dire situation. Israel, on the other hand, doesn't even acknowledge injustice has been done to the Palestinians, the native population, as this thread evidences. Apparently, they just felt like going away? That position comes awfully close to Holocaust denialism.

 

[Towlie]

So to you:

The Holocaust = removing people from their homes

Okay, I'm done feeding the troll. He either doesn't know what straw man arguments are, or he's enjoying himself by flagrantly repeating them just to cause frustration. The rest of you can keep banging your heads against the wall but I'm out of here.

 

[Pardalis]

That's a clear admission you're shifting the goalposts. The discussion was about the Holocaust, not about what it could lead to.

No, commemorating the Holocaust is usually also about being aware of that it can happen again.

No, you're calling an apple an orange. The Naqba refers to the ethnic cleansing of the Arabs, not to the declaration of independence of Israel.

And "Nabka Day" just so happens by pure coincidence to be a day after Israel's independence day?

Evidence?

As long as the State of Israel is seen as the "Great injustice", they will never accept it.

And how did the US, Canada, Australia cope with the injustice done to the native populations? By acknowledging the injustice, offering apologies and programs to address their dire situation.

The Palestinians having their own country would be a great opportunity for reparation. But alas...

Israel, on the other hand, doesn't even acknowledge injustice has been done to the Palestinians, the native population

As long as the Pals will respond with terrorist attacks, I don't see why they should.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I'm for the underdog, by nature. Now I look at the Israel/"Palestine" situation, and I see an oppressed side and an oppressor. Pardalis, I got no axe to grind in this old fight, but a large portion of the world sees the same thing, and I agree.

 

[Pardalis]

I'm for the underdog, by nature. Now I look at the Israel/"Palestine" situation, and I see an oppressed side and an oppressor.

I already told you I think this is a simplistic worldview.