9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Yahya Sulaiman]

9/11-investigator, you have the burden of proof bass-ackwards. The burden of proof, as a general rule, goes to those who are proposing something which goes against what has already generally been accepted as fact. You are the one with the position that goes against generally accepted fact and apparent reality. You're the one with the extraordinarily claim. Therefore, if any proof must be obtained on the matter, then it is you or someone else with your position who must prove that you are right.

 

[dudalb]

Much better ...

Now, best pay attention to those points from Nick Terry -- think he pretty much just owned your ass.

Agreed: Nick Terry Just...








9/11 Investigator.

 

[GreNME]

Nevertheless, it remains strange that Himmler would allow making a recording of such an incriminating speech.

Unless he was under the impression his team would win (which he and many others did). You make absolutely no sense with such a post-hoc defense.

So, in this light producing a 'recording' of a condamning speech does not necessarily belong to the realm of the impossible.

And there goes the shifting goalposts. Again. Each time some "one piece" of evidence is provided, you demand one more.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Himmler's Posen Speech
1. The Posen speech is hardly the only example of Himmler confessing all to a select audience of Nazi regime leaders. There is also the Sonthofen speech to military officers in the spring of 1944, to name but one further example.

So what do you want to prove? That Himmler was not a nice guy? I'll grant you that. You could have added his Weimar speech of December 16 1943:

"When, wherever I was, I was forced to give the order to march against partisans and Jewish commissars in a village, then I systematically gave the order to also kill the
wives and children of these partisans and commissars."

But most revisionist do not deny that probably hundreds of thousands of Jewish communist partisans were rounded up and machine-gunned into pits. That's what he is talking about. Is that criminal behavior? Of course it is. Just like Himmler's counter part in crime Winston Churchill, that drunken hooligan. He wrote to Paul Reynaud on May 16th 1940 :

"We shall starve Germany. We shall destroy its cities. We shall burn its crops and its forests."

And that's what he did. It is a little known fact that it was Churchill who started a blitz against German cities, not Hitler, who was very reluctant to retaliate (he never wanted war against Britain)

2. It is extremely improbable that torture of the physical type alleged can be used to force a confession as detailed as Hoess gave.

I agree with that, since the confession was made in English! How about preparing a piece of paper and than kicking Hoss under his testicles until he was willing to sign? Oh, and question: could you describe to me the exact location of the 'Wolzek Vernichtungslager' Hoss confessed to? (Anglos and geography!).

3. About 30 SS officers from Auschwitz had already confessed before he was captured. Thus, Hoess's statement was not needed, and if he had not been captured then other statements would have been placed centre stage, e.g. those of Grabner, Wirths and other officers 9/11-investigator has probably never heard of.

That's true, never heard of them. But I did hear of complete trustworthy witnesses like the Red Cross, who regularly visited the camps and never reported anything special about the alleged exterminations:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2735

Little surprising the Soviets (the bosom friends of the Anglos as you remember) never allowed access of the ICRC to their gulags. But I trust that Nick here is not too much concerned about what happened in the Gulags. After all they were the Allies so they reside under Nick's special protection. It is this massive double standards here that is typical for the judgement about WW2. Exaggerating and concentrating solely on the misdeeds of the Nazi's, which were plenty, and at the same time ignoring the crimes committed by their own side.

I wouldn't be surprised if we hear babble about how Hoess supposedly described the Sonderkommandos eating and smoking while dragging corpses out of the gas chambers, as if this related to the moment immediately after the doors were opened, when in fact this is a quote-mine first dug by Rassinier and ripped off by his disciple, Faurisson.

I won't babble of smoking or eating, I would like Nick to babble a bit about how hundreds of Jews are supposed to have died in twenty minutes or so during the gassing and that afterwards KAPO's can merily go about doing their business of draging these corpses out without any protection whatsoever and repeat this procedure day in day out. It's utter BS.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Much better ...

Now, best pay attention to those points from Nick Terry -- think he pretty much just owned your ass.

Lowering the standards where ever you go, don't you Trojan?

I get a warning for calling Funk de Fino 'Funky', but it remains to be seen how your vulgarities are going to be administered.

Although Trojan markets himself as a Russian (Serbian?) Orthodox Christian, people over at ThePhora judge differently:

Great post Investigator, and welcome. You'll find that Trojan and the rest of the Tribe at Phora will keep you well engaged. Well, maybe not "well" engaged, but engaged.

(written by somebody with more than 7000 posts). Trojan himself has more than 3000 posts there, which should be more than enough to 'let shine through his Orthodox identity'. It did not.

 

[Oliver]

As has been pointed out, most Jewish victims didn't die WITHIN Konzentrationslager, so what's your point in stupidly focusing on gassing in KZ's anyway? Factually, you're in a dead end street, don't you see?

 

[9/11-investigator]

9/11-investigator, you have the burden of proof bass-ackwards. The burden of proof, as a general rule, goes to those who are proposing something which goes against what has already generally been accepted as fact. You are the one with the position that goes against generally accepted fact and apparent reality. You're the one with the extraordinarily claim. Therefore, if any proof must be obtained on the matter, then it is you or someone else with your position who must prove that you are right.

1.3 billion Muslims claim that Muhamed is the prophet of Allah. According to your logic I should accept that wisdom since so many people hold that belief.

All the so-called extermination camps were located on Soviet occupied territory. You seem to take for granted everything Bolsheviks claim is the truth. I don't. That's the difference between you and me.

In European civilisation we hold the belief that somebody is innocent until proven otherwise. That should be the cause even after the judgment. Nuremberg was a show trial, a farce, organised by the victors making a mockery of justice. If you wanted a trial at all, the Red Cross, the Swiss or Swedes should have organized it, not Soviets + Anglos.

 

[9/11-investigator]

As has been pointed out, most Jewish victims didn't die WITHIN Konzentrationslager, so what's your point in stupidly focusing on gassing in KZ's anyway?

Aha, so you seem to agree that most Jewish victims did not die within the KZ?

This is quite a breakthrough!

My main point is that bishop Richard Williamson is probably right with his assertions that some 270,000 people died in the camps (some half of them Jews).

My point of contradiction is about what happened in the camps, not at the eastern front.

The discussion is about whether this is true:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/ICRC_letter_-_traceable_deaths_only.jpg

or that millions died in the camp as orthodoxy claims.

 

[Chaos]

The idea that everybody is innocent until proven otherwise is true for the Nazi's, the Hottentots, the Jena6, Lee Harvey Oswald, and heck, even the American government, as I explicitly say in my theory about 9/11 (search for 'disclaimer').

This is complete and utter ******** coming from you. Not for one ****ing second have you entertained even the slightest notion that it might be in the most remote way imaginable possible that the jews might actually not be guilty of even the least of the things you accuse them of.
Nor have you even considered even the remotest possibility that any of the evidence against the Nazis might be genuine and might make them guilty of what they´re accused of.

Thus, this whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing you keep repeating is really a "my heroes are innocent, the scum I hate is guilty, and **** reality" thing. A pity you don´t have the intellectual integrity to come right out and admit it.

 

[Oliver]

Aha, so you seem to agree that most Jewish victims did not die within the KZ?

This is quite a breakthrough!

My main point is that bishop Richard Williamson is probably right with his assertions that some 200,000 people died in the camps (some half of them Jews).

My point of contradiction is about what happened in the camps, not at the eastern front.

Well, the Einsatzgruppen alone, according to their own records, killed more than a million Jews. Which, assuming that you're correct about a "KZ-hoax", justifies the term "Holocaust" by itself. So why are you trying to focus on KZ's only?

According to their own records, the Einsatzgruppen murdered more than one million Jews, almost all civilians, beginning with the Polish intelligentsia, and then quickly progressing (by 1941) to killing Jews, gypsies and others throughout Eastern Europe. Historian Raul Hilberg estimates that between 1941 and 1945 the Einsatzgruppen and the SS killed more than 1.3 million Jews in open-air shootings.[5]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

Not to mention that:

Im Nürnberger Prozess gegen die Hauptkriegsverbrecher wurde 1946 erstmals die ungefähre Zahl von sechs Millionen ermordeter Juden genannt. In einer eidesstattlichen Erklärung sagte Wilhelm Höttl, bis 1945 Mitarbeiter im Reichssicherheitshauptamt, aus, Eichmann habe ihm berichtet:[21]
In den verschiedenen Vernichtungslagern seien etwa vier Millionen Juden getötet worden, während weitere zwei Millionen auf andere Weise den Tod fanden, wobei der größte Teil davon durch die Einsatzkommandos der Sicherheitspolizei während des Feldzuges gegen Rußland durch Erschießen getötet wurde.Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Beweisdokumente

Actually that's exactly what my Grandmother told me about the treatment of Jews in the Ukraine when the Nazi's invaded the country, namely: They where killed on the spot. No Konzentrationslager/deportation whatsoever. What about that is so hard to grasp?

 

[dtugg]

Has the nazi explained yet why his heroes argued that they were just following orders? Seems like a pretty stupid defense if the whole thing never happened.

 

[Nick Terry]

To help everyone amuse themselves while 9/11-investigator persists with his barrage of denier cliches, here is a draft of Denier B****** Bingo we came up with elsewhere over a year ago.

I think 9/11-investigator has scored pretty well so far...

1. Jewish Bolshevism/Jews started the revolution/controlled the Soviet Union
2. The "first six million"
3. Jewish Declaration of War, Daily Express 1933
4. anybody but the Germans started WWII
5. Nazi Germany was a wonderful place

6. The Wannsee conference never took place/the protocol is a forgery
7. Hitler didn't know
8. Nazi policy was emigration [pretending this was true throughout]
9. Ausrottung and Vernichtung don't mean extermination
10. Transfer Agreement [if introduced irrelevantly into discussion about 1940s]

11. six million gassed (bonus for 'at Auschwitz')
12. Auschwitz 4 million
13. Auschwitz swimming pool
14. Red Cross visit to Auschwitz
15. Other Auschwitz recreational facilities
16. Bendel and 'German methods'
17. Hoess was tortured
18. Vergasungskeller means "air raid carburetion delousing morgue"
19. Auschwitz crematorium a fake
20. Auschwitz crematoria destroyed by Soviets
21. Auschwitz Jews chose to go with the Nazis rather than stay behind with the Commies
22. "no holes"
23. Determine national origin by the colour of the smoke
24. Can't kill with an insecticide
25. no autopsy of a gassing victim

26. steam chambers/electric chambers
27. Richard Krege and GPR
28. Diesel gas chambers
29. Abraham Bomba
30. Wiernik's shoulderblade
31. Treblinka was where the rail gauges changed

32. First they called Belsen and Dachau extermination camps, then the story shifted to Auschwitz
33. Moshe Peer/Belsen
34. Dachau gas chamber
35. no extermination camps in Germany
36. Lachout document
37. Pedal driven brain bashing machine
38. Hunger in the camps in 1945 was the fault of the Allies

39. 'geysers of blood'
40. Babi Yar massacre never happened, the air photos prove it! 41. no mass graves were found

42. How come so-and-so survived the war?
43. Jewish partisans
44. Stalin killed them!
45. "Jews went where Jews are"
46. Walter Sanning
47. World Almanac
48. Too many Holocaust survivors
50. ITS Arolsen figures scan
51. All Soviet Jews were evacuated
52. Jews bombed by the Allies
53. Hoettl and the six million
54. Six million is Talmudic/religious in origin

55. exaggerated Dresden death toll
56. Japanese internment just as bad
57. Communism killed 100 million
58. James Bacque/Other Losses

59. Holocaust denial gets you jailed [not in 80% of the West it doesn't]
60. Holocaust is the only historical event protected by law [false]
61. Holocaust revisionists are not antisemitic
62. Holocaust revisionists are not neo-Nazis
63. Holocaust revisionists are scientists/historians
64. Rassinier says... (appeal to spurious authority)
65. Butz says..
66. Rudolf
67. Leuchter
68. David Cole
69. Mark Weber/Mattogno/whoever is a Zionist mole
70. David Irving was never a real revisionist 71. Pressac was a cryptorevisionist

72. the Zundel trial was a great victory73. Vrba and 'poetic license'
74. Hilberg
75. "imminent collapse" of Holohoax
75. "revisionism is growing"
76. Ahmadinejad's endorsement of revisionism is a good thing

77. Katyn
78. 'Jewish soap'
79. Nuremberg judgement false claims (steam chamber, etc etc)

80. Victors write the history
81. Why didn't Churchill mention...?
82. Fact x is not well-known or kept out of the history [score if you can produce Wikipedia page about fact x]
83. this photo is faked [when obvious denier Photoshop effort is posted]
84. Anne Frank diary a forgery
85. They never tell you Anne Frank died of typhus

86. that document is a forgery
87. no documents say x

88. Jews own the entire porn industry
89. Jews control x (media, countries, etc)
90. Compensation was for six million dead
91. fake survivors
92. Einsatzgruppen carried out only reprisals

There is also Bonus B****** Bingo, more aimed at the catchphrases and cliches used by deniers.

1. propaganda
2. showtrials
3. thoughtcrime
4. holohoax, holyhoax etc
5. holocaustianity
6. Court Historians
7. spelling jews, jewish etc lowercase
8. unnecessary capitalisation
9. waffling on antisemitism
10. posting anything from heretical.com, judicialinc.biz, rense.com
11. you are a jew/Zionist/shabbos goy
12. you are a shill
13. you jailed Germar Rudolf personally
14. you want to throw me in jail
15. 'those who control the past' quote from Orwell
16. Galileo reference
17. deranged and inaccurate use of term Zionist
18. porno-denial
19. Jewish historians (bonus for lowercase jewish)

 

[Trojan]

Lowering the standards where ever you go, don't you Trojan?

I get a warning for calling Funk de Fino 'Funky', but it remains to be seen how your vulgarities are going to be administered.

Although Trojan markets himself as a Russian (Serbian?) Orthodox Christian, people over at ThePhora judge differently:

Great post Investigator, and welcome. You'll find that Trojan and the rest of the Tribe at Phora will keep you well engaged. Well, maybe not "well" engaged, but engaged.

(written by somebody with more than 7000 posts). Trojan himself has more than 3000 posts there, which should be more than enough to 'let shine through his Orthodox identity'. It did not.

The person you quote is a no plane truther, Holocaust denier that also believes the moon landings are fake.

Nice friends you have.

Now, what was the investigators bingo score?

 

[Yahya Sulaiman]

1.3 billion Muslims claim that Muhamed is the prophet of Allah. According to your logic I should accept that wisdom since so many people hold that belief. All the so-called extermination camps were located on Soviet occupied territory. You seem to take for granted everything Bolsheviks claim is the truth. I don't. That's the difference between you and me. In European civilisation we hold the belief that somebody is innocent until proven otherwise. That should be the cause even after the judgment. Nuremberg was a show trial, a farce, organised by the victors making a mockery of justice. If you wanted a trial at all, the Red Cross, the Swiss or Swedes should have organized it, not Soviets + Anglos.

Actually, there are more Christians than Muslims in the world, if you can believe the statistics. I was not, however, making any sort of Appeal to the Majority. I was pointing out what I thought would not need pointing out in a board full of skeptics since skeptics so often bring up the matter, that it is the person making the extraordinary claim who has the burden of proof. (If you want evidence of the veracity of my religion then I will give you, if you request them, links to some articles from my website, but all of that is hardly relevant here.) Even if you think you don't have the extraordinary claim, consider it in terms of practical fact: since you are the one with the position that few people hold or even take seriously, you will not be efficacious in demanding evidence from them instead of making a point of being the one offering evidence to them instead, whether or not they're right, because of their numbers or for any other reason. Your refusal to assume the burden of proof is not going to help you convince anyone even if you're not the one who by right should have it or it's a matter of people being innocent until proven guilty or blah blah blah.

 

[Skeptic]

In European civilisation we hold the belief that somebody is innocent until proven otherwise.

Gee. I dunno. All those millions of Jews which mysteriously disappeared during the war when in German-occupied territory are a bit of a proof, if you ask me. Especially when coupled with, say, Hitler's and Himmler's numerous proclamations about how they're killing off all the Jews.

 

[headscratcher4]

"The idea that everybody is innocent until proven otherwise is true for the Nazi's"

Than you, by your own admission, have failed. Every court, every reading of the documents, the witness testimony, the unbiased scholarship have all repeatedly proven the Nazi's guilty...not just of the genocide of the Jews but causing WWII and the murder of millions of other Russians, slavs, Pols, Checks, Serbs, Greeks, etc.

You can talk about proof all you want...but it isn't a moving standard...i.e. proof isn't when you are satisfied, it is -- at least in the US -- when it is beyond a "reasonable" doubt. You've not even come close to reasonable doubt. You've not even come close to reasonable. The mound of evidence against your position, against your allegations would sink an armada. And, using italics to emphasize your point just underscores the silliness of your argument.

 

[dudalb]

To help everyone amuse themselves while 9/11-investigator persists with his barrage of denier cliches, here is a draft of Denier B****** Bingo we came up with elsewhere over a year ago.

I think 9/11-investigator has scored pretty well so far...

1. Jewish Bolshevism/Jews started the revolution/controlled the Soviet Union
2. The "first six million"
3. Jewish Declaration of War, Daily Express 1933
4. anybody but the Germans started WWII
5. Nazi Germany was a wonderful place

6. The Wannsee conference never took place/the protocol is a forgery
7. Hitler didn't know
8. Nazi policy was emigration [pretending this was true throughout]
9. Ausrottung and Vernichtung don't mean extermination
10. Transfer Agreement [if introduced irrelevantly into discussion about 1940s]

11. six million gassed (bonus for 'at Auschwitz')
12. Auschwitz 4 million
13. Auschwitz swimming pool
14. Red Cross visit to Auschwitz
15. Other Auschwitz recreational facilities
16. Bendel and 'German methods'
17. Hoess was tortured
18. Vergasungskeller means "air raid carburetion delousing morgue"
19. Auschwitz crematorium a fake
20. Auschwitz crematoria destroyed by Soviets
21. Auschwitz Jews chose to go with the Nazis rather than stay behind with the Commies
22. "no holes"
23. Determine national origin by the colour of the smoke
24. Can't kill with an insecticide
25. no autopsy of a gassing victim

26. steam chambers/electric chambers
27. Richard Krege and GPR
28. Diesel gas chambers
29. Abraham Bomba
30. Wiernik's shoulderblade
31. Treblinka was where the rail gauges changed

32. First they called Belsen and Dachau extermination camps, then the story shifted to Auschwitz
33. Moshe Peer/Belsen
34. Dachau gas chamber
35. no extermination camps in Germany
36. Lachout document
37. Pedal driven brain bashing machine
38. Hunger in the camps in 1945 was the fault of the Allies

39. 'geysers of blood'
40. Babi Yar massacre never happened, the air photos prove it! 41. no mass graves were found

42. How come so-and-so survived the war?
43. Jewish partisans
44. Stalin killed them!
45. "Jews went where Jews are"
46. Walter Sanning
47. World Almanac
48. Too many Holocaust survivors
50. ITS Arolsen figures scan
51. All Soviet Jews were evacuated
52. Jews bombed by the Allies
53. Hoettl and the six million
54. Six million is Talmudic/religious in origin

55. exaggerated Dresden death toll
56. Japanese internment just as bad
57. Communism killed 100 million
58. James Bacque/Other Losses

59. Holocaust denial gets you jailed [not in 80% of the West it doesn't]
60. Holocaust is the only historical event protected by law [false]
61. Holocaust revisionists are not antisemitic
62. Holocaust revisionists are not neo-Nazis
63. Holocaust revisionists are scientists/historians
64. Rassinier says... (appeal to spurious authority)
65. Butz says..
66. Rudolf
67. Leuchter
68. David Cole
69. Mark Weber/Mattogno/whoever is a Zionist mole
70. David Irving was never a real revisionist 71. Pressac was a cryptorevisionist

72. the Zundel trial was a great victory73. Vrba and 'poetic license'
74. Hilberg
75. "imminent collapse" of Holohoax
75. "revisionism is growing"
76. Ahmadinejad's endorsement of revisionism is a good thing

77. Katyn
78. 'Jewish soap'
79. Nuremberg judgement false claims (steam chamber, etc etc)

80. Victors write the history
81. Why didn't Churchill mention...?
82. Fact x is not well-known or kept out of the history [score if you can produce Wikipedia page about fact x]
83. this photo is faked [when obvious denier Photoshop effort is posted]
84. Anne Frank diary a forgery
85. They never tell you Anne Frank died of typhus

86. that document is a forgery
87. no documents say x

88. Jews own the entire porn industry
89. Jews control x (media, countries, etc)
90. Compensation was for six million dead
91. fake survivors
92. Einsatzgruppen carried out only reprisals

There is also Bonus B****** Bingo, more aimed at the catchphrases and cliches used by deniers.

1. propaganda
2. showtrials
3. thoughtcrime
4. holohoax, holyhoax etc
5. holocaustianity
6. Court Historians
7. spelling jews, jewish etc lowercase
8. unnecessary capitalisation
9. waffling on antisemitism
10. posting anything from heretical.com, judicialinc.biz, rense.com
11. you are a jew/Zionist/shabbos goy
12. you are a shill
13. you jailed Germar Rudolf personally
14. you want to throw me in jail
15. 'those who control the past' quote from Orwell
16. Galileo reference
17. deranged and inaccurate use of term Zionist
18. porno-denial
19. Jewish historians (bonus for lowercase jewish)

You forgot 9/11 Investigator's reason d'etre: The Jews were Responsible for 9/11.
Yeah, the guy is real piece of work.

 

[dudalb]

"The idea that everybody is innocent until proven otherwise is true for the Nazi's"

Except for the Jews.They are automatically guilty of any charge.

 

[Simon39759]

Except for the Jews.They are automatically guilty of any charge.

Well...

I still believe that, during the last world-war, many Jews has a frankly hostile hostile toward the Nazi-regime

Pierre Desproge (humorist)

 

[KDLarsen]

"We shall starve Germany. We shall destroy its cities. We shall burn its crops and its forests."

And that's what he did. It is a little known fact that it was Churchill who started a blitz against German cities, not Hitler, who was very reluctant to retaliate (he never wanted war against Britain)

(Rule 10)

The Luftwaffe was the first to deliberately target civilian targets, when they attacked Rotterdam on May 14 1940. You could even argue that they had attacked civilian targets during the invasion of Poland, though Nazi Germany argued that Warsaw was a fortress and thus a legit military target.