Scotland's healthcare system doesn't suck!

[Rolfe]

I see your point, but on the other hand this is 2009, not 1948. Americans have the example of what everybody else has got, to illustrate what a raw deal they are getting. And yet they'd rather stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la-la-la your healthcare sucks" than set about improving their situation.

No, you're right, this actually makes perfect sense in the context of human nature.

Rolfe.

 

[Random]

I think it is simply because they have always experienced healthcare privately and therefore see it as a business transaction that has nothing to do with the government. So they don't have that sense of entitlement that we have. I suppose you have to think back to pre NHS days in this country when if you didn't have money to pay a doctor, or a charity to help, then it was just your hard luck, and nobody would think to blame the government. I don't think it was campaigning and votes of the people excluded from healthcare that got the NHS started in Britain.

Exactly. Indeed, one of the stated motivations for the GOP stopping the implementation of any kind of universal healthcare plan is that if the plan is implemented, it will be tremendously popular and they will not be able to kill it after the fact.

 

[Ysidro]

Why you people put up with this treatment I have literally No Idea.

Rolfe.

Because we keep being told that otherwise would be un-American! And apparently we can't trust our government to help us. And only massive corproations out for nothing more than a profit can oversee our health.

Yeah, I don't get it either and I LIVE here.

 

[Rolfe]

I would really like to hear from some of the Americans who are opposed to universal healthcare here, and who have painted the NHS as a poor-quality system.

How would access to extra-corporeal membrane oxygenation be obtained in the USA? Would an uninsured person be given this treatment? Or someone with only basic insurance? Is it possible that an insurance company would refuse to pay for this after the event?

Could you name one or two of these elusive treatments that are allegedly routine in the USA but which people cannot access in universal healthcare systems?

Rolfe.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

'Mexican' flu? Have you re-christened it with its original, less catchy name? I prefer 'H1N1' myself, it sounds like a very bourgeois hair product.

 

[Shalamar]

And yet, still, there will be people (And some on this board!) who will claim that yes, ALL public health care sucks.

 

[Rolfe]

'Mexican' flu? Have you re-christened it with its original, less catchy name? I prefer 'H1N1' myself, it sounds like a very bourgeois hair product.

Well, I'm a vet. To me, swine flu is something pigs get.

You should meet my shampoo. Kerastase Resistance Bain de Force. Also doubles as an extra in the Star Wars films.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

And yet, still, there will be people (And some on this board!) who will claim that yes, ALL public health care sucks.

I'd seriously like to hear from these people. Of course there's nothing in this thread to counter those who are opposed to "dead-beats" having their lives saved in this way. I have no idea if the patient in the OP was a dead-beat or a brain surgeon. The care is there for everyone. So if you object to this, and you want the dead-beats to be left to die, then your objection is not countered by this example.

However, the frequent claim that in Britain (and in Europe) all we get is "some" care, or "very basic" care, or "on the cheap" care (all of which I've heard claimed), then yes, we have examples here to counter that.

There's no shame in changing your mind when better information becomes available. Anyone like to try it?

Rolfe.

 

[Meadmaker]

I see your point, but on the other hand this is 2009, not 1948. Americans have the example of what everybody else has got, to illustrate what a raw deal they are getting. And yet they'd rather stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la-la-la your healthcare sucks" than set about improving their situation.

Americans don't generally pay a lot of attention to the rest of the world, frankly.

In 1948, Germany was a rubble pile, much of Europe had a lot of ruins in it, all of the economies had been shattered, and outside of Europe and Japan, the rest of the world was largely dealing with non-industrial areas without electricity.

As a result, America shot ahead in technology, consumer goods, and things like high quality medical treatment. We grew up being told that we were special and superior. Up until about the mid 1980s, we really were way ahead of almost any other country.

Most Americans think it's still that way today. As a people, we don't really get around much.

 

[The Mutha]

I've ported this one back, or rather a part of it, because I thought it was at least as relevant to this topic.




This is bizarro-world! So you're saying, someone might be in the position of the Scottish woman with the flu, or the Norwegian woman described above, and the critical care team might make a life-or-death decision to go for something high-tech that had to be done immediately or not at all - and later, the insurance company could simply say they didn't authorise it, and leave the patient with the bill?



Why you people put up with this treatment I have literally No Idea.

Rolfe.

My sister, who lives here in Houston, has been diagonsed with ankylosing spondylitis. She is the sole support of her family of four (husband, two sons). She has been in incredible pain for the past year, but very reluctant to take pain meds as they make it hard for her to concentrate on anything, much less her job. She has what is considered "great" healthcare insurance.

She recently went in for epidurals into her spine so that she could walk more then 100 feet without keeling over in pain. Her rheumatologist set up the epidurals at a specific clinic and they were done. The shots made a world of difference to her and she's been much more active because of them.

Yesterday, she received in the mail a bill for $2,200 because the clinic and the anestheologist (sp?) were not covered under her health care plan. That was for one of the rounds of injections and she had three rounds... $6,600 total.

And now the rheumatologist wants her on Enbrel, which will basically make her uninsurable should she ever lose her current coverage. She was seriously considering not going with the Enbrel because of the non-insurability factor, but is picking the prescription up today.

Oh, and she's not into woo at all and has had to stop visiting the Rheumatoid Arthritis boards and the AS boards because the woo is very prevalent therein. There are people taking methadone as a way to treat their undiagnosed rheumatoid arthritis and swear by it! The boards also are full of the "horrors" of the UK's system and how terrible it would be to have that in the States.

It's WAY past time for a health care system wherein people wouldn't have to be afraid of losing their coverage should they lose their job or because of pre-existing conditions.

 

[Meadmaker]

How would access to extra-corporeal membrane oxygenation be obtained in the USA? Would an uninsured person be given this treatment? Or someone with only basic insurance? Is it possible that an insurance company would refuse to pay for this after the event?

Generally, life saving medical care is never denied for any reason. Usually, an insured person would be covered in full for such treatment, minus deductibles and copays. An uninsured person would receive it, and go bankrupt.

The biggest problem that would arise after the fact would come in a case where the insurance company claimed that there was a less expensive procedure that would have been good enough, at least according to the insurance company. In such a case, they would refuse to pay. You would have a chance to appeal that decision, providing documentation for why that procedure was necessary under the circumstances, but rest assured that "my doctor said so" will not be considered an adequate response. If they turn down that appeal (and it is the insurance company that judges the appeal), then you can sue, except that in most cases part of your contract is that you can't sue, but you can submit your case to binding arbitration.

Bottom line: If there's a doctor saying that this procedure is necessary to save your life, you will almost certainly get the procedure. Of course, you might not have a house to come to when you are released from the hospital, but those cases are pretty rare for those who have insurance.

 

[Delscottio]

My sister, who lives here in Houston, has been diagonsed with ankylosing spondylitis. She is the sole support of her family of four (husband, two sons). She has been in incredible pain for the past year, but very reluctant to take pain meds as they make it hard for her to concentrate on anything, much less her job. She has what is considered "great" healthcare insurance.

She recently went in for epidurals into her spine so that she could walk more then 100 feet without keeling over in pain. Her rheumatologist set up the epidurals at a specific clinic and they were done. The shots made a world of difference to her and she's been much more active because of them.

Yesterday, she received in the mail a bill for $2,200 because the clinic and the anestheologist (sp?) were not covered under her health care plan. That was for one of the rounds of injections and she had three rounds... $6,600 total.

And now the rheumatologist wants her on Enbrel, which will basically make her uninsurable should she ever lose her current coverage. She was seriously considering not going with the Enbrel because of the non-insurability factor, but is picking the prescription up today.

Oh, and she's not into woo at all and has had to stop visiting the Rheumatoid Arthritis boards and the AS boards because the woo is very prevalent therein. There are people taking methadone as a way to treat their undiagnosed rheumatoid arthritis and swear by it! The boards also are full of the "horrors" of the UK's system and how terrible it would be to have that in the States.

It's WAY past time for a health care system wherein people wouldn't have to be afraid of losing their coverage should they lose their job or because of pre-existing conditions.

I know this may sound naive but what happens now with the $6,600 bill? Is there an appeal? Does she have to pay or bankruptcy?

What a mess, seriously on the NHS the only thing she would have had to worry about is turning up for the appointment. How this can be twisted into a horror story has to be almost admired.

 

[Darat]

My sister, who lives here in Houston, has been diagonsed with ankylosing spondylitis. She is the sole support of her family of four (husband, two sons). She has been in incredible pain for the past year, but very reluctant to take pain meds as they make it hard for her to concentrate on anything, much less her job. She has what is considered "great" healthcare insurance.

She recently went in for epidurals into her spine so that she could walk more then 100 feet without keeling over in pain. Her rheumatologist set up the epidurals at a specific clinic and they were done. The shots made a world of difference to her and she's been much more active because of them.

Yesterday, she received in the mail a bill for $2,200 because the clinic and the anestheologist (sp?) were not covered under her health care plan. That was for one of the rounds of injections and she had three rounds... $6,600 total.

And now the rheumatologist wants her on Enbrel, which will basically make her uninsurable should she ever lose her current coverage. She was seriously considering not going with the Enbrel because of the non-insurability factor, but is picking the prescription up today.

Oh, and she's not into woo at all and has had to stop visiting the Rheumatoid Arthritis boards and the AS boards because the woo is very prevalent therein. There are people taking methadone as a way to treat their undiagnosed rheumatoid arthritis and swear by it! The boards also are full of the "horrors" of the UK's system and how terrrible it would be to have that in the States.

It's WAY past time for a health care system wherein people wouldn't have to be afraid of losing their coverage should they lose their job or because of pre-existing conditions.

This is another example where someone would be better off under a UHC like the NHS.

In the UK everything you described is standard treatment for AS, including TNF inhibitors. (Admittedly it took sometime before NICE approved their use.)

AS is my predominate underlying health issue, and from the age of 13 (when I was diagnosed with it) I have been treated under the NHS and have never ever had to worry about my treatment in terms of costs. Indeed I was treated for the first 10 years at a hospital that was (don't know if it still is ETA: it is http://www.wwl.nhs.uk/Internet/Home/Hospitals/wrightington.asp) a world-wide renowned centre for rheumatology (they pioneered hip replacements there) - which is a NHS hospital.

 

[Tanja]

My only knowledge of the US health system is through various Internet boards like this. On some of the weight loss boards that I frequent, health is a common subject. It never stops shocking me how often people from the US post things like "I am really ill but I can't afford to go to the doctor right now" and then try to get medical advice from other posters. I find it shocking (but then, I grew up in communist Yugoslavia and currently live in the UK, so of course the lack of universal health care shocks me).

 

[Darat]

Still waiting to see if anyone has examples of medically required treatments (paid for by insurance) in the USA that are not available via the NHS in the UK. Are there any?

 

[Toke]

I got a bit of a shock last month when I had to get out my credit card at the physician.
Health certificates and vaccinations for my job are billed to my employer, but by some new rules I have to pay the physician and then get the money reimbursed on my travel account.
When I asked "why all the new paperwork" the secretary just smiled and said it was easier for her.

 

[tkingdoll]

NHS healthcare can be incredible. It can also be inferior to private healthcare, but that's not a surprise, and not an argument against it. If BUPA had the number of patients the NHS did, their service level would be similar, I feel. In general though, the NHS is probably the greatest benefit to living in the UK.

NHS dentistry, on the other hand, is a freaking shambles. They're even now charging the unemployed, single parents etc for cleaning (essential for healthy gums) because it's, get this, cosmetic. Despite being carried out by a Hygienist, that is.

The idea of not being able to afford essential healthcare, or being afraid to risk insurance, upsets me greatly. Of course I only have the perspective of my own experience, but I can't see any benefit to the USA model over the UK model.

 

[The Mutha]

I know this may sound naive but what happens now with the $6,600 bill? Is there an appeal? Does she have to pay or bankruptcy?

What a mess, seriously on the NHS the only thing she would have had to worry about is turning up for the appointment. How this can be twisted into a horror story has to be almost admired.

She's contacted the Doctor and her insurance company to appeal their turning the charges down for payment, but chances are, she'll have to pay it. Slowly, over time. I know folks who paid $10 a month to the hospital where their child was born prematurely and finally paid off the bill when the kid was 10 or so... Although Helen definitely would pay it off sooner than that, I'm sure. My thing is the insurance company has to "pre-qualify" all procedures, why the heck didn't they let her know that the procedure was scheduled at a location they didn't cover?

 

[Leif Roar]

[...] from the age of 13 (when I was diagnosed with it) I have been treated under the NHS and have never ever had to worry about my treatment in terms of costs.

That's the thing that gets me about how health care works in the USA: the amount of worry it engenders. Worry about losing health insurance, worry about whether a procedure or drug is covered, worry about whether they can afford treatment that isn't covered, even worry about paying ambulance bills.

I have friends in the USA who have serious health conditions and little in the way of means to cushion them through, and I always end up with a twinge of a kind of survivor's guilt because all I have to worry about when I get sick is a) whether I'm going to get better or not and b) that my potted plants aren't being watered.

 

[Delscottio]

She's contacted the Doctor and her insurance company to appeal their turning the charges down for payment, but chances are, she'll have to pay it. Slowly, over time. I know folks who paid $10 a month to the hospital where their child was born prematurely and finally paid off the bill when the kid was 10 or so... Although Helen definitely would pay it off sooner than that, I'm sure. My thing is the insurance company has to "pre-qualify" all procedures, why the heck didn't they let her know that the procedure was scheduled at a location they didn't cover?

Disgusting, absolutely disgusting. Then again would you say anything if you could get out of spending $6600 by simply keeping your mouth shut?