Defining/Determining "Living Wage"

This is why you fail.

and why you fail to comprehend.

Obsessive compulsive gamblers believe A) they like gambling and it is fun and B) they are likely to win

They are operating rationally in so far as the limited information available to them.Other experiments have demonstrated that humans are really bad at odds, and numbers. Even if the answer is staring them in the face, they will mess up. Is this irrational? I don't think it fits the definition.

If it is just that people are bad with numbers, should we create regulations to help people with their numbers?

Even if it is irrational behavior, do you get a license to regulate because irrationally exists? Do you get to decide for someone else what is best for them? I'd say yes if you could read minds...then if you could I would say you should go after that $1.1 million prize...
 
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Person A)

1) People are rational actors

Person B)

2) We need a welfare state because People are not rational actors here is why X

Person A)

1) That is an example of people being bad at math, do you advocate a welfare state for those who are bad at math?

Except "Person B" never said that. D'roz said:
Remind yourself that you said this the next time you go down to the pub for a few and end up "rationally" having a few too many.

Or, seeing as how your location is Sin City, pop into a casino and watch all the rational economic activity by rational gamblers there.

All he provided were examples to show that people will not always act rationally. No where in that post did he say anything about welfare.

You really need to start actually reading what's been said and not just assuming you know what people mean. You haven't had a very good track record so far.
 
I'm not saying it's easy, nor that it hasn't been done without sacrifice, but first, I find it interesting that someone automatically takes the position of such to be unobtainable.

Anyway ... one simply starts a business with saved money (and or borrowed in part) that makes a decent product at a fair price. The business continues through expansion to employ hundreds of people. Each having a wage that allows them a comfortable living. Each employee pays taxes, the owner of said company pays taxes and society as a whole gets the product. Everyone benefits.

Now ... tax the butt out of the owner and he may very well close up shop. Now, just where do all those tax paying employees go? What happens to their paid taxes? What does society get with no more product?

So can you please now answer my orignal question?

in your example he is not outputing 300 times that of his workers.
without the workers his output is about the same as most others.
 
in your example he is not outputing 300 times that of his workers.
without the workers his output is about the same as most others.

BULL!

Where was their sacrifice?

Where was their risk?

Where was their investment in time and money?

What product did they come up with on their own?

Where did they go and make work for others so those others can have better lives?
 
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Except "Person B" never said that. D'roz said:


All he provided were examples to show that people will not always act rationally. No where in that post did he say anything about welfare.

You really need to start actually reading what's been said and not just assuming you know what people mean. You haven't had a very good track record so far.

Continue reading...
 
One thing that needs to be included in the necessities category is basic internet access. In this digital age internet access is essential, particularly when searching for a job.

Yes, there are places such as libraries where one can have free access to the internet, but they are woefully inadequate. I'm currently searching for a job, and I've been spending 6-8 hours a day for the past month job hunting on the internet. I've only had a few interviews (although I might have a job after an interview tomorrow that's only supposed to be a formality). I can't imagine how anyone could be expected to find a job when the library only allows one hour of internet access per day. Very few companies advertise jobs outside of the internet.

There should be better free public internet access. Either that, or include the cost of a bare bones computer and dial-up access in the living wage.

@Patrick_R: The job I may have after tomorrow will barely pay for my expenses. I'm taking it because if I don't, I'll run out of money in 2 months time and be on the streets. I am capable of doing better-paying jobs, but right now employers know that with so many people out of work, they can pay their employees slave wages while requiring them to do the work of 2 people. They are hiring fewer people and are expecting people to have enough experience that they don't have to train them. I am taking a job where I will be under-employed because I have no choice -- if I don't, I'll starve.
 
Isn't that what you are trying to do, in railing against the government they have chosen for themselves?

The only people who have chosen a government for themselves are the ones who immigrated...

nevertheless, I do not condone a government, whether chosen or not, that uses violence against others to achieve illegitimate means.
 
@Patrick_R: The job I may have after tomorrow will barely pay for my expenses. I'm taking it because if I don't, I'll run out of money in 2 months time and be on the streets. I am capable of doing better-paying jobs, but right now employers know that with so many people out of work, they can pay their employees slave wages while requiring them to do the work of 2 people. They are hiring fewer people and are expecting people to have enough experience that they don't have to train them. I am taking a job where I will be under-employed because I have no choice -- if I don't, I'll starve.

Starvation isn't force. Force is what another human does to you against your will. Like taking by force someone elses money so that you could survive (or eat ice cream while watching late night soaps, whatever).

By starve, I'll assume that you have cut out all your unnecessary budgeted items like ice cream, television etc (most people seem to include this as some sort of human right...or that they don't want to think about the fact that a poor person might just be living above their means when they say they're struggling to pay the bills).
 
One thing that needs to be included in the necessities category is basic internet access. In this digital age internet access is essential, particularly when searching for a job.

Yes, there are places such as libraries where one can have free access to the internet, but they are woefully inadequate. I'm currently searching for a job, and I've been spending 6-8 hours a day for the past month job hunting on the internet. I've only had a few interviews (although I might have a job after an interview tomorrow that's only supposed to be a formality). I can't imagine how anyone could be expected to find a job when the library only allows one hour of internet access per day. Very few companies advertise jobs outside of the internet.

There should be better free public internet access. Either that, or include the cost of a bare bones computer and dial-up access in the living wage.

@Patrick_R: The job I may have after tomorrow will barely pay for my expenses. I'm taking it because if I don't, I'll run out of money in 2 months time and be on the streets. I am capable of doing better-paying jobs, but right now employers know that with so many people out of work, they can pay their employees slave wages while requiring them to do the work of 2 people. They are hiring fewer people and are expecting people to have enough experience that they don't have to train them. I am taking a job where I will be under-employed because I have no choice -- if I don't, I'll starve.

I don't know how it is anywhere else, but in Cincinnati and here in Murphy, the local unemployment center (whatever it may be called) has computers with high-speed internet access for people to look for work. In fact, they also have pre-set sites to find otherwise hidden jobs, website search suggestions, and other aides in finding work. And what's best is you can continue to use the computer as long as you're actively looking for work, up until the ESC closes for the night.
 
BULL!

Where was their sacrifice?

Where was their risk?

Where was their investment in time and money?

What product did they come up with on their own?

Where did they go and make work for others so those others can have better lives?

they spend theyr time making the product.
they invested theyr time and labor.

without the workers investment of labor and time, the one persons idea and investment would be useless.

only the cooperation with others made it possible to have so many products manufactured.
 
Starvation isn't force. Force is what another human does to you against your will. Like taking by force someone elses money so that you could survive (or eat ice cream while watching late night soaps, whatever).

By starve, I'll assume that you have cut out all your unnecessary budgeted items like ice cream, television etc (most people seem to include this as some sort of human right...or that they don't want to think about the fact that a poor person might just be living above their means when they say they're struggling to pay the bills).

Third time you've used that straw man in this thread. You really love that straw man.
 
Starvation isn't force. Force is what another human does to you against your will. Like taking by force someone elses money so that you could survive (or eat ice cream while watching late night soaps, whatever).
Where did I use the word "force"? I said I had no choice but to take the job or starve.

By starve, I'll assume that you have cut out all your unnecessary budgeted items like ice cream, television etc (most people seem to include this as some sort of human right...or that they don't want to think about the fact that a poor person might just be living above their means when they say they're struggling to pay the bills).
My expenses are rent (which includes utilities), phone bill (landline, cheapest rate), food, bus fare, clothing (bare minimum), and internet (cheapest rate). I don't buy ice cream or convenience foods, and I know how to cook well enough to make meals that cost very little indeed. I have a television set that someone gave me, I don't have cable or satellite, and since the electricity is included in my rent, what little television I watch is essentially free.

I have never lived above my means. I don't have a credit card, and I don't have any debt.

Since you seem to be unwilling to listen to the logical arguments and facts that are presented to you, and since you do not seem to be capable of logic or even common sense, I'm putting you on my ignore list. I sincerely hope that you never have to look for work, because you would not be willing to lower your standards enough to find any job you could and my tax money would have to pay for your welfare check.
 
Where did I use the word "force"? I said I had no choice but to take the job or starve.

In that case I appologize. So you take the job or starve. We should be thankful that you got a job.


My expenses are rent (which includes utilities), phone bill (landline, cheapest rate), food, bus fare, clothing (bare minimum), and internet (cheapest rate). I don't buy ice cream or convenience foods, and I know how to cook well enough to make meals that cost very little indeed. I have a television set that someone gave me, I don't have cable or satellite, and since the electricity is included in my rent, what little television I watch is essentially free.

I have never lived above my means. I don't have a credit card, and I don't have any debt.

Sounds like you're giving it an honest effort.

Since you seem to be unwilling to listen to the logical arguments and facts that are presented to you, and since you do not seem to be capable of logic or even common sense, I'm putting you on my ignore list. I sincerely hope that you never have to look for work, because you would not be willing to lower your standards enough to find any job you could and my tax money would have to pay for your welfare check.

I think you peole throw around "logic" and "facts" too much without knowing what they mean, but ok, ignore me. I was hoping to understand exactly what your point was.

You recognize that starvation isn't force, so what is it you were going to do to improve your living condition?

And if things really got that bad for me, I would figure out ways to cut other costs. Find another roommate, get a cheaper place, move in with friends or family until I could get on my feet, and if things were really bad, I'd have to sell or give up my things and maybe find a shelter. Just because my standard of living dips or threatens to dip doesn't mean I have a right to someone elses income.
 
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they spend theyr time making the product.
they invested theyr time and labor.

And they are paid a compensating wage giving them a comfortable living. No sacrifice or investment without compensation. Sorry, this is in no way commensurate to what the owner of the corporation does.

without the workers investment of labor and time, the one persons idea and investment would be useless.

Nonsense, as most businesses are started small, with only initial output being that of the owner and/or a compensated member. If the initial idea was bad or not in demand enough to earn a decent profit and allow for growth, the company would wither and die ... as it should.

(You might want to catch an episode or two from the Discovery Channel's program Pitchmen, and see just how much time and investment many people put into their dreams ... the typical company worker doesn't even come close.)

only the cooperation with others made it possible to have so many products manufactured.

Without the initial start up, very few businesses would exist. The decision making allowing for growth, risk, investment of money and time (usually with little to no initial pay to themselves), is NOT shared by the workers. In fact, I doubt you would find many workers willing to do such on their own ---- they expect to be paid (in full) from day one. Or do I have that wrong?
 
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I had a thought I'd like to share.

A day's provisions for a day's labor seems fair to many people, but to some, it seems unreasonable. I'm not sure why, but here's something to consider.

Every person needs a day's provisions. The way to earn those provisions is to work for them. This can mean growing your own food, building your own shelter, or doing labor for others, among other things.

In our society, land is pretty much owned. The days of finding an unowned bit of land and starting a farm are long gone. So basically we're forced to work for others for a day's provisions.

When employers do not provide a day's provisions for a day's work, the employee must find another way to obtain those provisions. One possibility is to do additional work, but in a market where one job is hard enough to get, two is nearly impossible. Another possibility is finding another job, but in a given area, if one employer is paying a sub-living wage for general labor, most are likely to. Wages have to stay competitive, after all.

A third option is retraining, but this takes money. If a person cannot get a day's provisions, how are they going to get retraining?

The fourth option, and by far the most simple, is to obtain a day's provisions through force, scam, or crime. And once a person starts on the path of crime, they quickly realize they can earn far more than a day's provisions for less than a day's work.

If employers offer a day's provisions for a day's labor, they reduce the impetus to commit criminal acts.

We can look at periods in history when workers have been exploited, and gain some insight as to the relationship between inadequate wages and the prevalence - and acceptance - of crime. In days gone by, when the people generally lived in abject property and the fruits of their labors went to selfish nobles, criminals fluorished and banditry was commonplace; it was also accepted by the common folks, who were usually not the targets of such banditry. In fact, at many points in history, criminals were considered 'folk-heroes' or even idols, for standing up to the tyranny and greed of the elite. It is also no wonder that in many old cultures, 'freedom' was commonly related to 'banditry' - free folk lived off the produce of others (or, more correctly, of the gathered wealth held by the elite). Is it any wonder that the Romanian wanderers were seen as thieves, when they were simply free wanderers, supporting themselves as best they could in a world where you were expected to give a lifetime of labor for a bare, scant survival?

Workers should expect a day's provisions for a day's labor. Business owners, on the other hand, are expected to already have their provisions, or the means to acquire them, before entering into an enterprise. Why is it, after all, that advisors tell people looking to start a business that they should also plan in their budgets sufficient funds to cover their own needs for up to two to three years on top of what they're putting into business?

Very few - if, indeed, any - business owners are using food stamps (or starving), living in shelters, and walking to work in order to start up their business. They already have days, weeks, months -- even years - of provisions (or the means to acquire such) at their disposal.

One of the costs of business - along with tools, rent, supplies, etc. - is employees. And the base cost of an employee is a day's provisions for a day's work.
 
Here are human conditions in relation to work

A) Starvation and death
B) Subsistence farming/scavenging and life
C) Wage labor and life

You do subsistence farming and scavenging to avoid starvation.

You take the wage labor because A) its better than subsistence living or B) it makes you no worse off. At the very minimum, the wage you accept is going to be the living wage because you would not accept a wage that makes your life worse off than the alternatives (another wage job or subsistence living).

A “living wage” as defined as anything above this minimal level is put in place to provide people with things that they do not NEED – that is need to survive. That means you must be willing to put a gun to someones head and take their money to give it to someone else.
 
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