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Cases for the colonisation of Mars

Why explore Mars? My answer is simple and potentially lucrative. One of the primary goals of NASA, and a worthwhile one, is the search for extraterrestrial life. Mars is perhaps the easiest place to look that has a reasonable chance for success. I'm not implying we'll find little green men or Marvin the Martian, but the possibility that there's some kind of extremophilic bacteria or fungus or something of that caliber is a distinct one.
I don't think that is a good argument in favour of a manned mission though. Martian life would probably make a manned mission even more problematic; it will be difficult to completely rule out contamination of the Martian environment as the crew may need to get rid of waste some way. And it would also be difficult to ensure the crew don't come back to Earth with a bad case of the spacesniffles.
 
Seconded. Terrafoming first, colonizing second. Get the steps in order, sort of like building the walls, then the roof. :cool:
I would think that the terraformers would live on the surface of Mars over the many generations it seems likely to take to adapt the Martian environment to be hospitable to humans.
They would live, I guess, in "biodome" type manufactured environments while their work progressed. It seems likely that these environments could be self-sustaining on a planets' surface and would-in and of themselves- constitute a colony.
So I had it as "Colonize while Terraforming", in conjuction with one another.
 
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I would think that the terraformers would live on the surface of Mars over the many generations it seems likely to take to adapt the Martian environment to be hospitable to humans.
Depends on how they are doing it. Some ideas for terraforming Mars involve crashing comets in to it for a century or so.
 
I don't think that is a good argument in favour of a manned mission though. Martian life would probably make a manned mission even more problematic; it will be difficult to completely rule out contamination of the Martian environment as the crew may need to get rid of waste some way. And it would also be difficult to ensure the crew don't come back to Earth with a bad case of the spacesniffles.

You'll note I didn't specify. ;) I work at JPL, we do primarily uncrewed stuff, although my work supports both -- and I firmly believe the correct answer is "both."

It'll be some time before robotics can provide the same capability as an astronaut in place. But the right robots doing surveys, ferrying material, assembling spacecraft, etc. etc., are a fabulous force multiplier. A dozen astronauts with the right networks and sensors and assistants in place could do the job of thousands without. Bottom line, we use the right tools for the job, and for some jobs, astronauts are the right way despite the inherent cost and difficulties.
 
Taking your points out of order.

As you say.

This is one thing that baffles me about terraforming. The arguments for it quickly move in to tortured claims about what people might be able to adapt to. If we're terraforming, no adaptation should be required, never mind extreme (as in new species) adaptation.
Indeed, but terraforming is not a process that completes over night. It occurs over time, and people can and likely will become acclimatized to it as it continues. I used the 1/3 because the gravity is 1/3, presumably capable of holding onto an atmosphere 1/3rd the density in the same way as Earth holds onto the one here. It wasn't a stopping point, only a milestone.

The top of Everest doesn't have permanent encampments, never mind a civilization. The environment there routinely kills people who visit.
Indeed. That's sort of why I said "Not much farther". So, when the gas density on Mars gets to 1/3 torr, people can get by on respirators rather than pressure suits. Those people who cannot stand that then don't go out into it, just as they don't (or rather shouldn't) go up Everest.

I would start by pointing out that you're addressing one of the side effects of 1/3 G. The primary point is that 1/3 G isn't 1 G and can't be changed absent finding several more Mars size planets or equivalent and dropping them on Mars.

No Magnetic field. One more major way Mars can't be Earth.
What - Earth II or bust? Sort of strict, aren't you? I bet you live on sea level at 60 degrees F, right? These things are attainable, with current or slightly more advanced science/engineering. The absence of a magnetic field means that solar flares are more of a bother, but putting up an atmosphere will take care of most of that in the long run. You won't be able to use a compass.

Well, that's awfully glib isn't it? Do you think that liberating 200 trillion metric tons of oxygen is likely to be one of the things we'll learn during this crisis? And BTW 200 trillion tons of oxygen is just the obvious part. To get the pressure on Mars up to something Earth like we'll have to create even more of some other gases.
What, you have something against glib - it has to be possible today before you are willing to speculate a little about what will be possible in 100 or 200 years? You think things are simply going to come to a standstill on Earth, engineering-wise? I understand that at least one plan calls for releasing CO2 from the rocks about the planet to increase the pressure to where pressure suits wouldn't be required, and then letting plants do the rest - that's all within our current engineering capabilities (with a little more gene engineering for the plants, at least initially); indeed, we're trying to undo it on our planet here. Done just that way, it might take 100 years to get the pressure and temperature up and then 10,000 years to make it as oxygen rich as Earth, but there are more possibilities than that just over the horizon. The comets are another possibility, but that takes rather more engineering, and may not even be needed as water has been found on Mars in quantity.

I think I have to grant that if we can build the atmosphere in the first place we could sustain it, at least for a while. But it might be instructive to identify the energy source for this liberation process and to identify the reserves of whatever feedstock is feeding this process.
Well, don't be shy. I'm not a geologist, so I cannot help you out outside of what I read, so you perhaps have a better idea than I do. Perhaps there will be some huge roadblock and it won't be possible, like finding no bedrock where you want to plant the north tower of the Golden Gate, but that's not proven, and perhaps there will be a workaround. Want to bet on it?

What obstacle to continental sized space stations can you identify that isn't hugely worse in the case of terraforming Venus or Mars?
I have absolutely nothing against them. I'd love to see them. I like Arthur C Clarke's vision of a jewelled bracelet around Earth's equator at LEO, and G Harry Stine/Lee Corey's view of huge power stations at GEO absorbing rays and microwaving them to antennae on Earth. (I might point out, vis-a-vis your argument above against terraforming unless it generates a new Earth, that there is zero pressure and no magnetic field at GEO, and no way to fix either at all.) But mainly my question is, screw the problems, when are you gonna start?
 
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If we can learn terraforming, it would be worth colonizing Mars. But we can't even prevent the rain forests from disappearing, or terraform the Sahara desert.

The former is a political/social problem, not a scientific one. As for the Sahara desert, give us a little time. We managed to terraform Washington, DC two hundred years ago, and the Great American Desert a hundred years ago. I think the engineering is in it's infancy as yet.
 
AThat's sort of why I said "Not much farther". So, when the gas density on Mars gets to 1/3 torr, people can get by on respirators rather than pressure suits.
I'll put some more effort in to this conversation later, but for the moment can I ask if you meant "bar" and not "torr"? 1/3 torr is a virtual vacuum. 1/3 bar is closer to the top of Everest environment you mentioned before.
 
Let me step in and reveal my deep ignorance of all things space exploration...

But it seems to me that our efforts as a species would be far better placed in creating an intelligent life form capable of exploring space itself. I realize this is a long-range goal, on the order of centuries to accomplish, and we're just not guaranteed that much time. But getting us to the stars means taking and protecting our environment as well, and that's our biggest hurdle. We are not fitted for space travel - we are worse than an pig on a bicycle when it comes to space travel. So it is not "we" who should go, but the intelligent life forms we are capable of assisting into existence.

Yes, sure, we should go to Mars or the asteroids, colonize them, terraform, what have you. Maybe one day we learn how to build a minor star and send some of us on a journey to nearby planetary systems on a minor earth revolving that star. Maybe one day sooner than that, we can start mass-producing O'Neill cylinders.

But I think we can build intelligent lifeforms capable of dealing with space a lot faster. These beings won't necessary even look like us, adapted as they must be for space travel. But they will be able to communicate and share what they learn, that is, if we don't hack them off. They may even be able to help pave the way for us to travel to other star systems and beyond.

Would they be intelligent robots like Asimov's beloved R. Daneel, looking somewhat like us? Or would we describe them as intelligent ships, themselves carrying the ability and acquired knowledge to build life forms capable of adapting to the planets they approach? Would they be organic at all?

The Earth is ours, all of us living species, as long as we have a favorable environment. And certainly we should go and live where and how we can. But space may be beyond us as a species, and I truly believe it's our destiny (if that word has any meaning) to make a living being more fit to survive the changing environment. And if that environment is space, then we find a way to pass consciousness and intelligence on to beings that can better able live in that environment.

ETA: HAL has the greatest enthusiasm for the mission. Perhaps we should let him do it.
 
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Indeed, but terraforming is not a process that completes over night.
What, you have something against glib - it has to be possible today before you are willing to speculate a little about what will be possible in 100 or 200 years? You think things are simply going to come to a standstill on Earth, engineering-wise?
And later you talk of 10,000 years to terraform Mars. I have no problem with any of that. You might even be pessimstic at 10,000 years. But I do have a problem with setting current public policy based on the idea that we can colonize Mars or that Mars is the only, or even the best, hope for a "backup" plan for Earth. I have trouble with Buzz Aldrin at one point in the video linked in the OP describing Mars as habitable. Not potentially habitable, habitable. And not pointing out that there are other options with a lot less risk, a LOT faster payoff and don't require industrial infrastructures that are hundreds of times larger than what the human race is currently capable of.
I understand that at least one plan calls for releasing CO2 from the rocks about the planet to increase the pressure to where pressure suits wouldn't be required, and then letting plants do the rest - that's all within our current engineering capabilities (with a little more gene engineering for the plants, at least initially); indeed, we're trying to undo it on our planet here.
This gives a completely misleading impression of the effort required. What we are trying to undo on our planet now does not in any way compare to what we would need to do on Mars. We burn about seven billion tons of fossil fuels per year here on Earth. Raising Mars to 1/3 bar requires five trillion tons per year for a century, and I think I've underestimated that number. It's nearly a thousand times greater. And I'd need to know what method they are planning to use to create this CO2 before I could accurately estimate the energy cost but we're certainly talking an energy expenditure that would exceed the current energy consumption of the entire human race. It's not at all accurate to call that within our current engineering capabilities if we wanted to do it here on Earth, never mind another planet.

And I'm not a biologist but engineering a "plant" that can survive in the atmosphere described here sounds like a tall order also. I'm pretty sure that level of CO2 would be toxic to most plant species, maybe even all. And I don't know of any modern plants that can survive without oxygen. And I'm not sure if cyanobacteria could live in the acidic water such an atmosphere would lead to. We're not talking a small amount of genetic engineering. The conditions you're describing may never have existed on Earth.
 
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I'll put some more effort in to this conversation later, but for the moment can I ask if you meant "bar" and not "torr"? 1/3 torr is a virtual vacuum. 1/3 bar is closer to the top of Everest environment you mentioned before.

Check. You're right there. My Mistake.
 
I have absolutely nothing against them. I'd love to see them. I like Arthur C Clarke's vision of a jewelled bracelet around Earth's equator at LEO, and G Harry Stine/Lee Corey's view of huge power stations at GEO absorbing rays and microwaving them to antennae on Earth.

And those are all ideas that in some form can be pursued now with a small fraction of our economy and energy budget. Plenty of ways to start small and nearby.

And those ideas suggest we should be concentrating on nearby space based resources, not the surface of Mars. We should be concentrating on the Moon and Earth crossing asteroids. As far as Mars goes, we should be concentrating on it's two moons. It might not be obvious to the public but those moons are a heck of lot easier to get to, and, more importantly, get back from than the surface of Mars. They may be the most convenient source of large quantities of water for space based activities. In energy terms (but not time) I think those moons are less costly than getting to and from the surface of our own Moon, due to their nearly non-existent gravity.

(I might point out, vis-a-vis your argument above against terraforming unless it generates a new Earth, that there is zero pressure and no magnetic field at GEO, and no way to fix either at all.)

Pressure is easily fixed in a small station. And besides, if we don't get a station in Earth orbit entirely right, we can just let people come home to Earth.
 
I'm not so sure about engineering a life form just to make it explore space for us. Sounds a lot like slavery to me. Not to mention the fact that we won't even be the ones doing the exploring.

But, all the "we'll never colonize space" talk makes me think about all the other amazing leaps forward we made that people of the time scoffed at. We'll never break the sound barrier, put a man on the moon, etc. I honestly believe that we as a species can accomplish anything if we want to. Yes, I know today's frontier is different and more difficult, but saying we've reached the limit of what we'll accomplish strikes me as incredibly dumb.
 
I'm not so sure about engineering a life form just to make it explore space for us. Sounds a lot like slavery to me. Not to mention the fact that we won't even be the ones doing the exploring.

But, all the "we'll never colonize space" talk makes me think about all the other amazing leaps forward we made that people of the time scoffed at. We'll never break the sound barrier, put a man on the moon, etc. I honestly believe that we as a species can accomplish anything if we want to. Yes, I know today's frontier is different and more difficult, but saying we've reached the limit of what we'll accomplish strikes me as incredibly dumb.

"Make it explore space for us" isn't what I had in mind at all. When I say intelligent and conscious, I mean sovereign as well. This new species would explore space like we explore our planet. Space would be its natural environment, ideally. What this new species does is up to it.

What strikes me as incredibly foolish is expending immense amounts of energy and resources on something so profligate as sending a human colony to Mars, etc. In my opinion, helping to develop a species our mental equal that could live on Mars is a far better use of our time, our energy, and our resources.

And I never said that we've reached the limit of what we'll accomplish. It seems to me that helping bring a space-faring species into existence would be a singular achievement of humankind.
 
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We are human.

Going places we have no right being has worked out pretty well for us for 2 million years. Why stop now?
 
The best reason for colonizing is because there's nobody already there to bugger you around. That's the reason just about every corner of Earth has been colonized by humans.
 

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