Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

[GlennB]

Even a layman can see that paper is junk.

A few early samples from the "paper" below. It's "spot the science" time :

This was a necessary jolt. Without it the required work could not have been done.

Unsubtantiated assertion. If my car accelerates across a field of corn stubble, it does work to knock the stubble out of the way. My overall acceleration in a given time might be exactly the same without the stubble but if I have to knock a sapling out of the way. The former scenario results in no detectable jolt, the latter a big one.
Your statement above is scientifically unfounded, yet it sits up there at the top of your 'paper', very pleased with itself. It's a fine case of false premise, a quicksand on which the rest of your paper is built.

These designations actually underestimate the contrast between RB-12+ and RB-92, because the latter was not only largely undamaged by fire but was more massive per story.

Ah ! So there was heat-weakening after all! I thought you said there wasn't ? And the difference in steel dimensions from one storey to the next was non-existent or very small. The buildings tapered gradually in that sense.

I started to analyse more of that essay of yours, but it was pointless.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Isn't it? There is when you drop a beer can on another beer can. Easy to demonstrate. Actually, every time there is an impact, there should be a jolt.

Where was the jolt when the airliners collided with the towers? There are many videos of it. Perhaps you could point me to one that demonstrates a jolt when the plane hits.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Those lateral stiffness of the elements took into account the torsional effects of wind loads and were intended to keep the building straight, not have 30 story section introduce torsion to them through having the columns buckling. A column is as good as useless if the loads are being applied in any direction other than straight down.

It doesn't make much sense to design the buildings any other way, especially given the extreme economy with which skyscrapers are built.* I can just imagine the engineers in project meetings: "So, what happens when the columns swivel to a 45-degree angle? We have to be ready for that."

The answer to that would be "make sure you have plenty of insurance".

(In Life After People, which I mentioned earlier, it was predicted that the skyline of New York City would slowly regress backwards in time, with the newer skyscrapers collapsing first, and the old concrete monsters from the thirties falling last.)

 

[aggle-rithm]

I would hope you realize that you are the real liar here. Although it is possible that you just don't know and are willing to go out on a limb based on your beliefs.

You have not shown anything, in any way whatsoever, that what I am saying here is untrue.

Only if you don't consider "wrong" to be "untrue".

It's possible that someone could be wrong and believe he is right; in that case I wouldn't say he is lying, just wrong.

Heiwa is clearly lying, bill smith is simply wrong. I'm not sure about you.

 

[funk de fino]

I would hope you realize that you are the real liar here. Although it is possible that you just don't know and are willing to go out on a limb based on your beliefs.

You have not shown anything, in any way whatsoever, that what I am saying here is untrue.

You are lying as I have proved you have lied. You claimed that NIST did not mention the two pieces of steel which were attacked by the liquid slag. You have not read the entire report or you would have know this is false.

This is a blatant lie and I can prove it.

Please don't use fire weakening as an excuse here as there is no physical evidence of the steel experiencing high enough temperatures to even weaken it.

Care to take a wager on the above?

 

[funk de fino]

It is obvious that you have no clue, with your simple minded attempt to just say the top section of each building was skewed and that is the answer to why there was no deceleration and velocity loss of the top section.

Your dolt paper relies on the simplified column on column scenario. This did not happen in real life. Your political claptrap is clouding your engineering.

What aerospace projects are you involved in Tony?

 

[aggle-rithm]

It stands to reason that if there was no jolt that the core columns, upper nd lower did not meet. Therefore there was no real pressure to distort the fully braced upstanding core columns and the upper part must have impaled itself upon them. Given that there was no deceleration of the upper block either it must have been skewered by those columns as it continued to fall. Been gutted in other words.
The upstanding columns in the body of the upper block would have been kept vertical by that body and been protected from lateral forces that might break the welds.

Whatever you do, don't google "Zeno's Paradox". It'll blow your mind, man.

 

[aggle-rithm]

What aerospace projects are you involved in Tony?

I would like to know that, too.

"The wings couldn't have fallen off; there was no jolt."

 

[aggle-rithm]

Your statement above is scientifically unfounded, yet it sits up there at the top of your 'paper', very pleased with itself. It's a fine case of false premise, a quicksand on which the rest of your paper is built.

At least he didn't call it an "axiom".

 

[Reactor drone]

The problem with what you are saying here is that you don't explain that the kinetic energy has to be transferred to cause damage and that requires deceleration and velocity loss. Of course, the fall of WTC 1's upper block does not show any deceleration or velocity loss so it's kinetic energy was not transferred.

Why do you leave important pieces of information like that out? Or is it that you just don't know that is important?

Do you think it is possible that the kinetic energy lost in breaking the column to floor connections might result in a reduction in acceleration but still leave an overall positive acceleration of the upper section of the building and ever increasing velocity?

I think the problem is you've committed to a very high energy method of column deformation which is leading you to overstate its negative impact on the building's acceleration.

The idea that there should be a negative acceleration rather than just a reduced positive acceleration and therefore a reduction in velocity is a flawed assumption.

 

[tfk]

Sorry, you cannot ignore the 96 floors below floor 97, total of which makes up part A (connected to ground), when floors 98-110 (part C) drop on floor 97.

.
Cripes, Anders. You ARE "sorry".

I didn't "ignore" any floors. I said, "And then Floors 110 thru 98 crush Floor 97. And then Floors 110 thru 97 crush Floor 96 ..."

Do you see that "..." at the end of the sentence?? All those other floors are built in there. But if you are so clueless that you need it spelled out for you, here ya go. Ready?

Floors 110 thru 98 crush down Floor 97
Floors 110 thru 97 crush down Floor 96
Floors 110 thru 96 crush down Floor 95
Floors 110 thru 95 crush down Floor 94
Floors 110 thru 94 crush down Floor 93
Floors 110 thru 93 crush down Floor 92
Floors 110 thru 92 crush down Floor 91
Floors 110 thru 91 crush down Floor 90
Floors 110 thru 90 crush down Floor 89
Floors 110 thru 89 crush down Floor 88
Floors 110 thru 88 crush down Floor 87
Floors 110 thru 87 crush down Floor 86
Floors 110 thru 86 crush down Floor 85
Floors 110 thru 85 crush down Floor 84
Floors 110 thru 84 crush down Floor 83
Floors 110 thru 83 crush down Floor 82
Floors 110 thru 82 crush down Floor 81
Floors 110 thru 81 crush down Floor 80
Floors 110 thru 80 crush down Floor 79
Floors 110 thru 79 crush down Floor 78
Floors 110 thru 78 crush down Floor 77
Floors 110 thru 77 crush down Floor 76
Floors 110 thru 76 crush down Floor 75
Floors 110 thru 75 crush down Floor 74
Floors 110 thru 74 crush down Floor 73
Floors 110 thru 73 crush down Floor 72
Floors 110 thru 72 crush down Floor 71
Floors 110 thru 71 crush down Floor 70
Floors 110 thru 70 crush down Floor 69
Floors 110 thru 69 crush down Floor 68
Floors 110 thru 68 crush down Floor 67
Floors 110 thru 67 crush down Floor 66
Floors 110 thru 66 crush down Floor 65
Floors 110 thru 65 crush down Floor 64
Floors 110 thru 64 crush down Floor 63
Floors 110 thru 63 crush down Floor 62
Floors 110 thru 62 crush down Floor 61
Floors 110 thru 61 crush down Floor 60
Floors 110 thru 60 crush down Floor 59
Floors 110 thru 59 crush down Floor 58
Floors 110 thru 58 crush down Floor 57
Floors 110 thru 57 crush down Floor 56
Floors 110 thru 56 crush down Floor 55
Floors 110 thru 55 crush down Floor 54
Floors 110 thru 54 crush down Floor 53
Floors 110 thru 53 crush down Floor 52
Floors 110 thru 52 crush down Floor 51
Floors 110 thru 51 crush down Floor 50
Floors 110 thru 50 crush down Floor 49
Floors 110 thru 49 crush down Floor 48
Floors 110 thru 48 crush down Floor 47
Floors 110 thru 47 crush down Floor 46
Floors 110 thru 46 crush down Floor 45
Floors 110 thru 45 crush down Floor 44
Floors 110 thru 44 crush down Floor 43
Floors 110 thru 43 crush down Floor 42
Floors 110 thru 42 crush down Floor 41
Floors 110 thru 41 crush down Floor 40
Floors 110 thru 40 crush down Floor 39
Floors 110 thru 39 crush down Floor 38
Floors 110 thru 38 crush down Floor 37
Floors 110 thru 37 crush down Floor 36
Floors 110 thru 36 crush down Floor 35
Floors 110 thru 35 crush down Floor 34
Floors 110 thru 34 crush down Floor 33
Floors 110 thru 33 crush down Floor 32
Floors 110 thru 32 crush down Floor 31
Floors 110 thru 31 crush down Floor 30
Floors 110 thru 30 crush down Floor 29
Floors 110 thru 29 crush down Floor 28
Floors 110 thru 28 crush down Floor 27
Floors 110 thru 27 crush down Floor 26
Floors 110 thru 26 crush down Floor 25
Floors 110 thru 25 crush down Floor 24
Floors 110 thru 24 crush down Floor 23
Floors 110 thru 23 crush down Floor 22
Floors 110 thru 22 crush down Floor 21
Floors 110 thru 21 crush down Floor 20
Floors 110 thru 20 crush down Floor 19
Floors 110 thru 19 crush down Floor 18
Floors 110 thru 18 crush down Floor 17
Floors 110 thru 17 crush down Floor 16
Floors 110 thru 16 crush down Floor 15
Floors 110 thru 15 crush down Floor 14
Floors 110 thru 14 crush down Floor 13
Floors 110 thru 13 crush down Floor 12
Floors 110 thru 12 crush down Floor 11
Floors 110 thru 11 crush down Floor 10
Floors 110 thru 10 crush down Floor 9
Floors 110 thru 9 crush down Floor 8
Floors 110 thru 8 crush down Floor 7
Floors 110 thru 7 crush down Floor 6
Floors 110 thru 6 crush down Floor 5
Floors 110 thru 5 crush down Floor 4
Floors 110 thru 4 crush down Floor 3
Floors 110 thru 3 crush down Floor 2
Floors 110 thru 2 crush down Floor 1
Floors 110 thru 99 crush down Floor 98
Floors 110 thru 100 crush down Floor 99
Floors 110 thru 101 crush down Floor 100
Floors 110 thru 102 crush down Floor 101
Floors 110 thru 103 crush down Floor 102
Floors 110 thru 104 crush down Floor 103
Floors 110 thru 105 crush down Floor 104
Floors 110 thru 106 crush down Floor 105
Floors 110 thru 107 crush down Floor 106
Floors 110 thru 108 crush down Floor 107
Floors 110 thru 109 crush down Floor 108
Floors 109 & 110 are torn apart by momentum and column splay.

How tedious...

Happy now??

Why do I suspect ... "not"?

Actually, it is only floor 98 that impacts floor 97 assuming that all columns (and furniture) between floors 97-98 have been suddenly removed. Floors 99-110 do not impact anything! They are far above floor 98 and only connected to floor 98 via columns.

.
You have "assumed" yourself into technical oblivion.

"... assuming all columns & furniture have been suddenly removed ..." You are joking, right..?!!

Only in little Anders World are these things "beamed out" of the towers.

In the real world, the stub end of the columns crash down ...

But then again, I explained ALL of this, in detail, here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4743226 .

You had a chance to answer it there. And you rudely, and cowardly, ran away from the discussion. You STILL have a chance to answer it. You simply have to START addressing the issues in my post.

So what element breaks when floor 98 impacts floor 97? The columns below floor 97 or the columns above floor 98?

.
See post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4743226

Tip! The columns above floor 98 are weaker than the columns below floor 97 for obvious reasons.

.
EVERY SINGLE "tip" that you've given to anyone has turned out to be a broken down nag that never got out of the gate. This one is no different.

There is, BTW, zero SIGNIFICANT difference between the columns on any two adjacent floors. (2/3rds of the columns are SHARED by adjacent floors. 1/3rd of the columns BARELY change in dimension at any single juncture.)

There IS a significant difference between the columns on floors that are 6 or 12 stories apart.

Additional question: Wouldn't you expect a jolt when floor 98 impacts floor 97, i.e. part C is slowed down when meeting this resistance that part A makes up?

.
No, I would not expect a SIGNIFICANT jolt. By the engineering definition of "significant". That is, measurable with the equipment in place (i.e., video cameras .5 to 1 mile away).

There would be a jolt if a semi-truck hit your body doing 80 mph. It is unlikely in the extreme that a camera pointed at the rear of the semi would detect the jolt. Even tho it is there.
___

Your game is up, Anders.

You KNOW that you are wrong. You have PROVEN to us that you know you are wrong by the care with which you choose the questions that you WILL answer & discuss (the few that you've gotten correct) versus the questions that you WILL NOT answer or discuss. The latter group you ignore completely or reply with your vacuous "read my paper".

You see, Anders, people do NOT need a technical background to easily read - and understand - your evasiveness. You can only bs them for so long.

Tom

 

[tfk]

So YOU said, quote:

3. The Errors in Heiwa's analysis:

These are too numerous to count. And have been detailed by numerous folks here already.

But the crucial one pertinent to this discussion include:

1. He ignores the difference between static & dynamic loads.
2. He ignores the asymmetric consequences of gravity and the vertical motion of the upper Part C.
3. He incorrectly claims that mass & energy of the upper block lose their ability to cause damage once they have broken into rubble.
4. Most important error: he ignores the fact that Part C is going to gather most of the debris created until its entire lower surface constitutes a near solid mass of impacted debris that easily crushes each Part A floor, one by one.
5. This lower solid mass of debris is also the material that protects the upper Part C from being eroded by the stub ends of Part A's columns.

un-quote.

LOL!

Part C is going to gather debris ... ! LLOL.

A solid mass of impacted debris ... LLLLLLOL!

This lower solid mass of debris ... protects the upper Part C ... Hilarious.

Sorry Tom! You don't know anything about structures and what happens when you drop a part C on a part A of same structure. Haven't you ever dropped something?

THIS is your idea of constructing an engineering argument?

You'd be laughed out of any competent group of engineers.

With lots of "LLLLLOL"s behind you as you left the room...

Try again to construct counter-arguments that are worthy of a freshman engineering student.

These fail.

Tom

 

[tfk]

Tony,

Tony,

Thank you for answering my previous questions. This leads to progress, I believe. (I'm busy today. I'll be able to respond later.)

Please answer precisely. Engineering terms.

What, exactly, determines the instantaneous magnitude of the acceleration?

What, exactly, determines the sequence (i.e., the timing) of the successive accelerations?

Tom

Instantaneous acceleration is the derivative of the velocity or dV/dT at a given point.

If you read the Missing Jolt paper you will see that we measure distance vs. time of the roof's fall. This is then differentiated to find velocity at each measurement point using

Vn = Dn-Dn-1/Tn-Tn-1 where D is distance and T is time.

With the velocity known at each point in the overall measurement time it can be graphed. Acceleration and deceleration are the derivative of velocity and thus comprise the slope of the velocity curve. If the slope is positive that is acceleration, if it is negative that is deceleration.

In the case of WTC 1's upper block fall there is no negative slope in the velocity curve and the velocity was increasing continuously, there was no deceleration.

.
Please read my questions.

I've told you already that I am a 56 year old mechanical engineer.

By what delusions of grandeur do you think that I need you to explain to me what "acceleration" is????

I asked you a specific set of questions.

You answered NONE of them.

Please try again. Please try to answer the questions that I ask.

By "What, exactly ..." I mean "What physical occurrences in the collapsing buildings ..."

Tom

 

[newton3376]

The problem with what you are saying here is that you don't explain that the kinetic energy has to be transferred to cause damage and that requires deceleration and velocity loss.

You truthers have been corrected time and time again...

The buildings fell near free fall speed.....not at free fall speed....

But ignoring that for a moment....please tell us in your estimation how much "deceleration and velocity loss" there should have been (BTW I find your wording to be very strange since in this case deceleration implies a loss in instantaneous velocity so saying "deceleration and velocity loss" seems unnecessarily wordy).

Please show your calculations for the "deceleration and velocity loss".....

Of course, the fall of WTC 1's upper block does not show any deceleration or velocity loss so it's kinetic energy was not transferred.

That's a really stupid comment......especially if you claim to be an engineer....

So if I fire a 9mm at a piece of paper and the bullet goes through the paper but we don't measure any velocity loss in the bullet then no kinetic energy was transferred?

So where exactly does the bullet get the energy to break the paper if it isn't kinetic?


Someone please please tell me this guy doesn't claim to be an engineer....

 

[FineWine]

The problem with what you are saying here is that you don't explain that the kinetic energy has to be transferred to cause damage and that requires deceleration and velocity loss. Of course, the fall of WTC 1's upper block does not show any deceleration or velocity loss so it's kinetic energy was not transferred.

Why do you leave important pieces of information like that out? Or is it that you just don't know that is important?

I am not on a witch hunt for scapegoats at all, but for whoever actually set up those buildings for demolition and pulled the triggers on them. That is a hunt for identifying the real terrorists/perpetrators who weren't in the planes that flew into the buildings, because science shows it was not aircraft damage and fires that took down those buildings. The planes were nothing more than causal ruses designed to fool people into thinking they were the cause and blaming others.

There were no explosives of any kind in the twin towers. Not a single demolition expert takes your absurd myth seriously.

 

[tfk]

Hello hello T.

I don't suppose ypu have a clue where the three-quarters of a square mile of mesh reinforcing is gone either ? Well, considering that you don't know much about structures I suppose that more cannot be expected. Toaster design is a different area of ngineering anyway I suppose though here is some mesh involved I believe.

Yes, bill. I know EXACTLY where the 3/4th of a square mile of mesh reinforcing has gone. It has gone nowhere.

This whole charade is nothing but you, publicly fondling yourself. It's gotten the rest of us rather uncomfortable, frankly.

BTW, engineers DO design toasters. Anyone, engineer or not, that has actually designed anything & brought it to market knows 10,000x more than you do about ALL of these subjects.

Have a little respect for toaster designers.

Last note. To show you (what everyone else but you understands) what a techno-buffoon you are ...

You said that there was "some" mesh there. But too little "by dozens of orders of magnitude". Which is exactly what I commented on that prompted your strutting reply.

Let's assume that there is just ONE FOOT of your mesh visible.

ONE dozen "orders of magnitude" would mean 10¹² feet of mesh. This is sufficient mesh to reach from the earth to the moon and back. About 4000 TIMES.

TWO dozen orders of magnitude would be 10²⁴ feet.
This is enough to reach the nearest star Proxima Centuri, and back.
About 8 million times.

Still think you are missing "dozens of orders of magitude", dummy?

Do you even have enough understanding to be embarrassed by your silly attempt at technobabble?

Just curious.

Tom

 

[FineWine]

.
Cripes, Anders. You ARE "sorry".

I didn't "ignore" any floors. I said, "And then Floors 110 thru 98 crush Floor 97. And then Floors 110 thru 97 crush Floor 96 ..."

Do you see that "..." at the end of the sentence?? All those other floors are built in there. But if you are so clueless that you need it spelled out for you, here ya go. Ready?

Floors 110 thru 98 crush down Floor 97
Floors 110 thru 97 crush down Floor 96
Floors 110 thru 96 crush down Floor 95
Floors 110 thru 95 crush down Floor 94
Floors 110 thru 94 crush down Floor 93
Floors 110 thru 93 crush down Floor 92
Floors 110 thru 92 crush down Floor 91
Floors 110 thru 91 crush down Floor 90
Floors 110 thru 90 crush down Floor 89
Floors 110 thru 89 crush down Floor 88
Floors 110 thru 88 crush down Floor 87
Floors 110 thru 87 crush down Floor 86
Floors 110 thru 86 crush down Floor 85
Floors 110 thru 85 crush down Floor 84
Floors 110 thru 84 crush down Floor 83
Floors 110 thru 83 crush down Floor 82
Floors 110 thru 82 crush down Floor 81
Floors 110 thru 81 crush down Floor 80
Floors 110 thru 80 crush down Floor 79
Floors 110 thru 79 crush down Floor 78
Floors 110 thru 78 crush down Floor 77
Floors 110 thru 77 crush down Floor 76
Floors 110 thru 76 crush down Floor 75
Floors 110 thru 75 crush down Floor 74
Floors 110 thru 74 crush down Floor 73
Floors 110 thru 73 crush down Floor 72
Floors 110 thru 72 crush down Floor 71
Floors 110 thru 71 crush down Floor 70
Floors 110 thru 70 crush down Floor 69
Floors 110 thru 69 crush down Floor 68
Floors 110 thru 68 crush down Floor 67
Floors 110 thru 67 crush down Floor 66
Floors 110 thru 66 crush down Floor 65
Floors 110 thru 65 crush down Floor 64
Floors 110 thru 64 crush down Floor 63
Floors 110 thru 63 crush down Floor 62
Floors 110 thru 62 crush down Floor 61
Floors 110 thru 61 crush down Floor 60
Floors 110 thru 60 crush down Floor 59
Floors 110 thru 59 crush down Floor 58
Floors 110 thru 58 crush down Floor 57
Floors 110 thru 57 crush down Floor 56
Floors 110 thru 56 crush down Floor 55
Floors 110 thru 55 crush down Floor 54
Floors 110 thru 54 crush down Floor 53
Floors 110 thru 53 crush down Floor 52
Floors 110 thru 52 crush down Floor 51
Floors 110 thru 51 crush down Floor 50
Floors 110 thru 50 crush down Floor 49
Floors 110 thru 49 crush down Floor 48
Floors 110 thru 48 crush down Floor 47
Floors 110 thru 47 crush down Floor 46
Floors 110 thru 46 crush down Floor 45
Floors 110 thru 45 crush down Floor 44
Floors 110 thru 44 crush down Floor 43
Floors 110 thru 43 crush down Floor 42
Floors 110 thru 42 crush down Floor 41
Floors 110 thru 41 crush down Floor 40
Floors 110 thru 40 crush down Floor 39
Floors 110 thru 39 crush down Floor 38
Floors 110 thru 38 crush down Floor 37
Floors 110 thru 37 crush down Floor 36
Floors 110 thru 36 crush down Floor 35
Floors 110 thru 35 crush down Floor 34
Floors 110 thru 34 crush down Floor 33
Floors 110 thru 33 crush down Floor 32
Floors 110 thru 32 crush down Floor 31
Floors 110 thru 31 crush down Floor 30
Floors 110 thru 30 crush down Floor 29
Floors 110 thru 29 crush down Floor 28
Floors 110 thru 28 crush down Floor 27
Floors 110 thru 27 crush down Floor 26
Floors 110 thru 26 crush down Floor 25
Floors 110 thru 25 crush down Floor 24
Floors 110 thru 24 crush down Floor 23
Floors 110 thru 23 crush down Floor 22
Floors 110 thru 22 crush down Floor 21
Floors 110 thru 21 crush down Floor 20
Floors 110 thru 20 crush down Floor 19
Floors 110 thru 19 crush down Floor 18
Floors 110 thru 18 crush down Floor 17
Floors 110 thru 17 crush down Floor 16
Floors 110 thru 16 crush down Floor 15
Floors 110 thru 15 crush down Floor 14
Floors 110 thru 14 crush down Floor 13
Floors 110 thru 13 crush down Floor 12
Floors 110 thru 12 crush down Floor 11
Floors 110 thru 11 crush down Floor 10
Floors 110 thru 10 crush down Floor 9
Floors 110 thru 9 crush down Floor 8
Floors 110 thru 8 crush down Floor 7
Floors 110 thru 7 crush down Floor 6
Floors 110 thru 6 crush down Floor 5
Floors 110 thru 5 crush down Floor 4
Floors 110 thru 4 crush down Floor 3
Floors 110 thru 3 crush down Floor 2
Floors 110 thru 2 crush down Floor 1
Floors 110 thru 99 crush down Floor 98
Floors 110 thru 100 crush down Floor 99
Floors 110 thru 101 crush down Floor 100
Floors 110 thru 102 crush down Floor 101
Floors 110 thru 103 crush down Floor 102
Floors 110 thru 104 crush down Floor 103
Floors 110 thru 105 crush down Floor 104
Floors 110 thru 106 crush down Floor 105
Floors 110 thru 107 crush down Floor 106
Floors 110 thru 108 crush down Floor 107
Floors 110 thru 109 crush down Floor 108
Floors 109 & 110 are torn apart by momentum and column splay.

How tedious...

Happy now??

Why do I suspect ... "not"?


.
You have "assumed" yourself into technical oblivion.

"... assuming all columns & furniture have been suddenly removed ..." You are joking, right..?!!

Only in little Anders World are these things "beamed out" of the towers.

In the real world, the stub end of the columns crash down ...

But then again, I explained ALL of this, in detail, here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4743226 .

You had a chance to answer it there. And you rudely, and cowardly, ran away from the discussion. You STILL have a chance to answer it. You simply have to START addressing the issues in my post.


.
See post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4743226


.
EVERY SINGLE "tip" that you've given to anyone has turned out to be a broken down nag that never got out of the gate. This one is no different.

There is, BTW, zero SIGNIFICANT difference between the columns on any two adjacent floors. (2/3rds of the columns are SHARED by adjacent floors. 1/3rd of the columns BARELY change in dimension at any single juncture.)

There IS a significant difference between the columns on floors that are 6 or 12 stories apart.


.
No, I would not expect a SIGNIFICANT jolt. By the engineering definition of "significant". That is, measurable with the equipment in place (i.e., video cameras .5 to 1 mile away).

There would be a jolt if a semi-truck hit your body doing 80 mph. It is unlikely in the extreme that a camera pointed at the rear of the semi would detect the jolt. Even tho it is there.
___

Your game is up, Anders.

You KNOW that you are wrong. You have PROVEN to us that you know you are wrong by the care with which you choose the questions that you WILL answer & discuss (the few that you've gotten correct) versus the questions that you WILL NOT answer or discuss. The latter group you ignore completely or reply with your vacuous "read my paper".

You see, Anders, people do NOT need a technical background to easily read - and understand - your evasiveness. You can only bs them for so long.

Tom

I have repeatedly asked Heiwa to tell me if it matters whether the lowest floor of the collapsing mass contains the lightweight garden furniture and the floor above contains the heavy printers' plates or the contents of those two floors are reversed. Am I correct in assuming that his idiotic interpretation of the collapses depends on only the lowest falling floor hitting the floor below. The upper collapsing floors just float harmlessly in midair, adding neither mass nor momentum.

I have asked Heiwa how it would help protect the 97th floor if, as floors 98-110 crashed down it, floors 1-96 were a solid block of granite. He refuses to respond, except to babble incoherently about irrelevancies.

Am I being unfair to Heiwa?

 

[tfk]

Anders,

According [to] Tom floor 98 doesn't really crush (sic) floor 97! ... I do not understand what Tom is really suggesting.

.
Look, you ignorant, pompous, rude jerk.

You are DAMNED right that you do not know what I am saying.

I INVITED you into a discussion with me for the precise purpose of explaining to you what I am saying. You RUDELY ignored all of my attempts to discuss the issues.

So please refrain from your typically fumbling, incompetent attempt to interpret what I have said until after you have cleared them with me.

Your interpretation here is 100% wrong.

I guess ignorance is bliss, eh, Anders.

LOL.

Tom

 

[tfk]

I have repeatedly asked Heiwa to tell me if it matters whether the lowest floor of the collapsing mass contains the lightweight garden furniture and the floor above contains the heavy printers' plates or the contents of those two floors are reversed. Am I correct in assuming that his idiotic interpretation of the collapses depends on only the lowest falling floor hitting the floor below. The upper collapsing floors just float harmlessly in midair, adding neither mass nor momentum.

I have asked Heiwa how it would help protect the 97th floor if, as floors 98-110 crashed down it, floors 1-96 were a solid block of granite. He refuses to respond, except to babble incoherently about irrelevancies.

Am I being unfair to Heiwa?

FW,

You have to consider the PATHWAY that the forces (i.e., from weight & momentum) take in order to be transmitted from one component to another. These forces have to be transmitted thru physically touching components.

Heiwa is right that the upper floors do not transmit their weight & momentum DIRECTLY. Since they are not DIRECTLY touching floor 97. But the upper floors DO connect to the support columns and the support columns DO impact on Floor 97. So, ALL of the upper floors DO transmit both their weight & momentum to Floor 97 THRU the support columns. Actually thru approximately 1/2 the core & external columns.

Heiwa is right that the lower column stubs will also impact on the underside of floor 98. This is a version of the hunter with a spear, allowing the lion to charge him, burying the back end of the spear in the ground, and allowing the lion's momentum to impale itself on the end of the spear. (My hat's off to ANYONE who has ever pulled off this stunt...)

So there WILL be a mutual destruction of both Floors 97 & 98.

But after that first floor's destruction, the picture changes.

As I tried to explain here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4743226 , there are some subtle effects that cause the destruction to not be symmetric, up vs. down. This symmetic destruction is the core of Heiwa's (incorrect) contention.

There are two components that are responsible for the destruction of the floors: the column stubs and the mass of the debris that has been broken free in the crush zone. The column stubs are only significant during the 97th & 98th floor's destruction. After that, lateral forces simply sweep the column stubs aside.

The descending mass is all that matters. And as I tried to show, that mass of debris will collect at the bottom of the descending (& growing) upper body. And it will interleaf and connect to the upper blocks columns. And therefore that layer of debris will transmit the weight of the entire upper block (by virtue of its connection to the columns) and protect the upper block from further destruction.

As I tried to explain in that post, by the time the crush zone reaches any given floor, that floor has ALREADY had 2/3rds of it supports ripped apart. With this level of destruction, it has already been turned for the most part into loosely connected debris. Much of it already falling.

A piece of free falling debris, descending at 10 mph, puts far, far less impact on the 50 mph descending mass than that same piece of debris would have if it had been stationary & firmly fixed to its supports. This is a large part of the reason for the asymmetric destruction.

So, to answer your question, the placement of lawn chairs & lead plates is, of course, irrelevant to the ultimate fate of the universe.

You have been GROSSLY unfair to Heiwa, FW. You've expected him to discuss the issues with honesty and maturity.

How COULD you...?

Tom

 

[GlennB]

That's a really stupid comment......especially if you claim to be an engineer....

So if I fire a 9mm at a piece of paper and the bullet goes through the paper but we don't measure any velocity loss in the bullet then no kinetic energy was transferred?

So where exactly does the bullet get the energy to break the paper if it isn't kinetic?

A doofus you are. Explained it, already Tony has.

It goes like this -
The building was carefully CD'd just as collapse initiated. The lack of 'jolt' proves this. Thus, the upper block expended no kinetic energy in breaking the lower block as the latter was already falling. The fact that upper block fell at well less than g acceleration means that .. er... well, it just means SOMETHING OK ???? Maybe he'll write a 'paper' about it, you Bush-loving shill-sheeple.

Someone please please tell me this guy doesn't claim to be an engineer....

I'm afraid I have some bad news for you, Mr newton3376 ......