Rabbi says "Jewish Holocaust victims were reincarnation of past sinners"

[Thunder]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443718416&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This is no fringe Rabbi. He is the spiritual leader of a powerful Israeli political block.

#1. Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation??? I never heard of this one before.

#2. Since when does Judaism believe that reincarnated sinners deserve to suffer horribly...for all eternity?? This guy is truly a nut and an *******.

#3. People who make excuses or lay even 1% of the blame on anyone OTHER then the Nazi criminals...needs to have their head examined.

Christians used to believe that all the Jew's suffering and persecution was punishment for our rejection of Christ. This Rabbi isn't far off from the same thinking.

 

[AgeGap]

Was he a fan of Formula 1.

 

[Elizabeth I]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443718416&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This is no fringe Rabbi. He is the spiritual leader of a powerful Israeli political block.

#1. Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation??? I never heard of this one before.

#2. Since when does Judaism believe that reincarnated sinners deserve to suffer horribly...for all eternity?? This guy is truly a nut and an *******.

#3. People who make excuses or lay even 1% of the blame on anyone OTHER then the Nazi criminals...needs to have their head examined.

Christians used to believe that all the Jew's suffering and persecution was punishment for our rejection of Christ. This Rabbi isn't far off from the same thinking.

Is this really that far off from some of the OT prophets, who blamed Israel's tribulations on their turning away from God? Not that that excuses what the man says, it just means it's not new.

 

[TsarBomba]

From his Wikipedia Article

He is highly revered in the religious world, especially in the Sephardi and Mizrahi communities, for his erudition and Torah scholarship.

 

[marksman]

As usual, Parky reads the headline, but not the article:

"All those poor people in the Holocaust…we wonder why it was done. There were righteous people among them. Still, they were punished because of sins of past generations."​

He's not saying those killed in the Holocaust specifically were wicked. He's saying that the bad things that happen to the Jews -- including the Holocause -- is due to the sin of the Golden Calf. This is no different than the Christian dictrone of original sin. It doesn't mean that it's oay to hurt Jews or that Jews deserved the Holocaust any more than the doctrine of original sin means it's okay to hurt one another or that we deserve to be afflicted.

I'm not saying its a good phlosophy, but it's not as heinous as parky's initial post makes it seem.

 

[marksman]

Oh and to answer parky's questions

#1. Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation??? I never heard of this one before.

Gee, it's only been about 1900 years. It's not a universal belief amongst Jews (very little is) but it's one of the more common afterlife theories.

#2. Since when does Judaism believe that reincarnated sinners deserve to suffer horribly...for all eternity??

That's not what he said.

#3. People who make excuses or lay even 1% of the blame on anyone OTHER then the Nazi criminals...needs to have their head examined.

That's not what he said.

Christians used to believe that all the Jew's suffering and persecution was punishment for our rejection of Christ. This Rabbi isn't far off from the same thinking.

Yes, he is. You are misunderstanding what he's saying. His view is just a variant on original sin.

 

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

So...why isn't "Nazis are crazy and evil." a good enough answer?

 

[marksman]

Depends on what the question is.

 

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

Depends on what the question is.

It seems like this guy blames (himself since he's a Rabbi? ok...sure...) Jewish people for their own plights.
That they've inherited the sins of their ancestors.
All because of their golden calf in the old testament (or Torah)
All I can say is that if God is still punishing them for a mistake they made over 2000 years ago he must really be a dick. (If you're a theist that is. I just think people need to stop discriminating against the Jewish people, they've been very unlucky.)

I think he's just spewing silly nonsense like most religious people.

 

[lightfire22000]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443718416&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This is no fringe Rabbi. He is the spiritual leader of a powerful Israeli political block.

#1. Since when does Judaism believe in reincarnation??? I never heard of this one before.

#2. Since when does Judaism believe that reincarnated sinners deserve to suffer horribly...for all eternity?? This guy is truly a nut and an *******.

#3. People who make excuses or lay even 1% of the blame on anyone OTHER then the Nazi criminals...needs to have their head examined.

Christians used to believe that all the Jew's suffering and persecution was punishment for our rejection of Christ. This Rabbi isn't far off from the same thinking.

I was raised with considerable Jewish tradition though I'm not Jewish now. There is a weird movement called Jewish Reconstructionism. Perhaps, the rabbi is related to the movement.

 

[marksman]

It seems like this guy blames (himself since he's a Rabbi? ok...sure...) Jewish people for their own plights.

That's no what he's doing.

All I can say is that if God is still punishing them for a mistake they made over 2000 years ago he must really be a dick.

That's not what he's doing. I don't believe in his philosophy, but it's not that God is intentionally sending stuff at Jews. It's more of a karmic metaphysics in that the Jews collectively did something bad lon ago and now karma's a bitch. God isn't sending Nazis. There's no blame involved.

I think he's just spewing silly nonsense like most religious people.

Well, it's easy to think incorrect things if you don't bother to look too deeply. That goes for religious zealots as well as superficial atheists.

 

[marksman]

I was raised with considerable Jewish tradition though I'm not Jewish now. There is a weird movement called Jewish Reconstructionism. Perhaps, the rabbi is related to the movement.

He's not related to Reconstructionism. Shas is an ultra-Orthodox party. He probably believes in Kabbalistic theories of reincarnation. I doubt he woud have nice things to say about Reconstructionism.

 

[Thunder]

He's not related to Reconstructionism. Shas is an ultra-Orthodox party. He probably believes in Kabbalistic theories of reincarnation. I doubt he woud have nice things to say about Reconstructionism.

correct. this is a Khabbalistic belief, one that I have NEVER heard of before.

i was taught, that all souls will be resurrected when the Messiah comes. but reincarnation???? this is not a jewish idea.

 

[a_unique_person]

As usual, Parky reads the headline, but not the article:

"All those poor people in the Holocaust…we wonder why it was done. There were righteous people among them. Still, they were punished because of sins of past generations."​

He's not saying those killed in the Holocaust specifically were wicked. He's saying that the bad things that happen to the Jews -- including the Holocause -- is due to the sin of the Golden Calf. This is no different than the Christian dictrone of original sin. It doesn't mean that it's oay to hurt Jews or that Jews deserved the Holocaust any more than the doctrine of original sin means it's okay to hurt one another or that we deserve to be afflicted.

I'm not saying its a good phlosophy, but it's not as heinous as parky's initial post makes it seem.

The guy is as wacky as they come. He is saying the sinners deserved it, and the righteous were punished as well for the sins of the past generations. Effectively, he is letting the Nazi's off the hook.

And I don't recall reincarnation being taught anywhere in the OT. It looks like it is a relatively recent belief, and not in the Talmud. According to this, it is accepted by Orthodox Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Judaism

 

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

That's no what he's doing.


That's not what he's doing. I don't believe in his philosophy, but it's not that God is intentionally sending stuff at Jews. It's more of a karmic metaphysics in that the Jews collectively did something bad lon ago and now karma's a bitch. God isn't sending Nazis. There's no blame involved.


Well, it's easy to think incorrect things if you don't bother to look too deeply. That goes for religious zealots as well as superficial atheists.

Hate to be rude especially being a n00b but here goes...
Well...since you obviously know everything, please enlighten me. What does the article mean Marksman since there is apparently some deep hidden meaning that eludes me.

 

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

The guy is as wacky as they come. He is saying the sinners deserved it, and the righteous were punished as well for the sins of the past generations. Effectively, he is letting the Nazi's off the hook.

I agree, it sounds like a Rabbi saying that all bad things happen to Jews because of the Golden Calf (Which I already believe is irrelevant being a rationalist) is responsible for all the bad things that have and are happening to Jews. As for reincarnation, so he's saying that God is repeatedly punishing the Jewish people in a never ending reincarnating living hell? Ok that is a bit much, but see what I mean? That sounds kooky as can be.

 

[marksman]

Hate to be rude especially being a n00b but here goes...
Well...since you obviously know everything, please enlighten me. What does the article mean Marksman since there is apparently some deep hidden meaning that eludes me.

I already explained it to Parky in this thread. He's giving a variation on original sin. Bad things happen because, essentially, of all the bad karma that was caused (caused is different from "earned") from the Golden Calf incident.

He is definitely not blaming the Holocaust victims, which is why he specifically states there were righteous among the victims. But it's a better headline to make it seem like he's blaming the victim.

And to reiterate. I don't agree with the rabbi, but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate it when people who post to a skeptic's site blindly assume the worst about people.

And, Parky, you're really not the guy who gets to say what is appropriate in Judaism and what is not. The afterlife is a real enigma in Judaism as it is virtually unmentioned in the Tanakh. There are indications of various thoughts in the Talmud, including (but not exclusively) reincarnation. It's been a part of Judaism in one form or another for more than a thousand years. It's one of the more prevalent afterlife beliefs, but it is not, despite what the rabbi stated, a necessary belief even for Orthodox Jews.

 

[marksman]

As an aside, as for scriptural support for reincarnation, most believers (of which I am not) cite to Job 33:29-30, which indicates that God has people live twice or thrice (or more) in order to give them ample opportunity to live a righteous life.

Another passage that may refer to reincarnation is Job 1:21, in which Job talks about being born from a woman's womb and then "returning" there. That has been considered a description of reincarnation. (I'm hard-pressed to figure out what else it might mean.)

But that's about it for stuff that seems to me to refer to reincarnation in the Torah. (Rabbis cite other passages, but I find their interpretations tortured, at best.)

Nevertheless, the idea of reincarnation was a fringe belief, at best, prior to 12th century. In the 10th century a Jewish scholar named Saadia Gaon wrote down what he believed to be the accepted beliefs at the time. In his section on the afterlife, he discusses the Messianic Age and the belief that all souls will be resurrected. He mentions reincarnation only to debunk it as a Jewish belief, calling it, essentially, heretical. But his work was one of advocacy -- he wanted Jews to accept his vision of things and reject others. It didn't work. However, in writing his book, he seems to be tacitly acknowledging that there was a strain of Jewish thought at the time that at least considered the possibility of reincarnation, thus indicating its presence in Jewish thought for at least the past 1,000 years, if not longer.

With the rise of Kabbalistic practices in the 12th century, reincarnation became a more prevalent idea. When Isaac Luria (16th century) and Baal Shem Tov (18th century), seminal characters in Jewish mysticism, endorsed reincarnation, that pretty much cemented it for Orthodox Jewry.

 

[a_unique_person]

I already explained it to Parky in this thread. He's giving a variation on original sin. Bad things happen because, essentially, of all the bad karma that was caused (caused is different from "earned") from the Golden Calf incident.

He is definitely not blaming the Holocaust victims, which is why he specifically states there were righteous among the victims. But it's a better headline to make it seem like he's blaming the victim.

You are reading it incorrectly. He mentions that there are righteous as well as those who were not righteous amongst the victims. The righteous died because the 'golden calf', but the others died because they were not righteous.

 

[marksman]

The righteous died because the 'golden calf', but the others died because they were not righteous.

What you just wrote is not in any of his statements in the article. You are assuming that's what he really meant.

But the doctrine he is discussing is well-established in Orthodox Judaism and it is not a specific punishment like a penal decree. It is a karmic consequence of the Golden Calf, though people who have not studied Jewish philosophy often confuse consequences and intentional specific punishment.

At any rate, there is nothing in the article that indicates the rabbi believes the unrighteous died in the Holocaust for a different reason than the righteous died in the Holocaust. You're mistaken.