U.S. obesity problem intensifies

[johnny karate]

30% of the US population is obese. Not just overweight, clinically obese. Yes, there are eating disorders and various other medical conditions that can make it difficult to keep your weight down. Are you seriously suggesting that a third of the US population suffers from some kind of genetic or mental disorder that causes them to be obese? Really?

I think those making claims of eating disorders and glandular problems should supply some supporting data so we can determine what percentage of obese people we're actually talking about.

 

[Modified]

The measurements that should be used are height and waist. A super fit person would have a small waist, and a fat person would have a big waist.

That has the same problem when used for gauging individual health, since people's bone structure and body shape vary so much. For measuring "the nation's health" though, it would be better than BMI.

 

[linusrichard]

Unless an excuse is being offered. I don't care if someone is overweight. But I do take issue with someone telling me they're overweight because it's too hard not to be.

I think it's unfortunate that anyone should feel like they have to tell you why they're overweight. Not that that situation is your fault, I just think it's an unfortunate situation.

 

[Cleon]

Must have been a Rangers game.

Sure as hell wasn't the Pirates.

(Not because of the food, but because there were people in the stands.)

 

[Delscottio]

Losing weight is similar to giving up smoking, if you want it enough you'll do it.

I just don't want to shift the stone and a half I put on from quiting the cancer sticks enough, which is slightly ironic and annoying.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I didn't mean to imply being overweight is inexcusable. But I do think that saying losing weight is "too hard" is inexusable. It creates a climate where no one has to do anything they don't want to if they arbitrarily deem it "too hard". Which was why I posed the queries I did. If being "too hard" becomes a reason to not do something, then I think it's reasonable to establish how we came to the conclusion it was "too hard" in the first place.

For some people -- those that try again and again, but fail -- it may very well be "too hard". People are different. What's easy for one person is not always easy for another.

To use your example of preparing dinner, I certainly don't find that task too difficult. However, the best I can say about it is that it's a neutral experience. I don't dislike it, but I don't get any particular enjoyment from it either. It's just something that needs to be done. But it does require effort, regardless of how I feel about exerting that effort. So is it an act of will power for me to prepare dinner? Yes, insomuch that it requires me to perform a task from which I get no enjoyment. But at this point in my life, it's an exertion of will power I'm barely even aware of anymore.

And, I contend, if you're "barely even aware" of it, then it's not an exertion of willpower. More on this below.

I think the same principle applies to a regiment of healthy diet and exercise. No matter who you are, or what your genetic predispositions are, choosing to eat well and exercising on a regular basis requires effort, and thus an exertion of will power. (Especially exercise. I don't think by any definition of the word could one call exercising "easy".) But eventually, with a little self-discipline, it becomes part of a routine. You don't exert any less effort in doing it, you just become accustomed to the exertion.

I'm not talking about the physical exertion of exercise. I'm talking about the mental exertion required to even make yourself start in the first place. People who love to ride their bike don't have to summon up any willpower to get on the bike in the first place. It's the person who hates bike riding, that barely forces themselves to get on the bike, that has to summon the willpower. People who love to ride their bike are probably going to be thinner than those who hate it, just by virtue of not having to force themselves to do something they don't want to. They get a lot of exercise almost completely without the need for willpower. And, because they get a lot of exercise, they are probably pretty free to eat without watching their calories too closely. Are people who love to ride their bike superior to those who don't?

I'm not really saying that it's "too hard". What I am saying, is it's a lot easier for some people -- people who love physical activity, or who, for whatever reason, have smaller appetites -- to stay thin, than it is for others. I don't know about anyone on this forum, but in real life it seems to be a lot of these people, for whom being thin is no real effort, who seem to think they have a monopoly on willpower and self-discipline.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Losing weight is similar to giving up smoking, if you want it enough you'll do it.

Except "enough" is a different value for each person. I smoked casually in college, quite a bit my freshman year, but less as time went by. Quitting smoking was incredibly easy for me, but I can still appreciate that it can be very difficult for others. I don't think I "wanted" it more than they do. It's just that it was so easy for me that hardly wanting it at all was still "enough".

 

[Obsequious]

30% of the US population is obese. Not just overweight, clinically obese. Yes, there are eating disorders and various other medical conditions that can make it difficult to keep your weight down. Are you seriously suggesting that a third of the US population suffers from some kind of genetic or mental disorder that causes them to be obese? Really?

It really is very simple. Fat people are that way because they eat too much and don't exercise enough. That really is all there is to it. Aside from the minority who have a genuine medical condition that causes problems controlling either diet or physical activity, it's entirely their own fault. It's not necessarily a bad thing. As has already been pointed out, obesity does not appear to correlate with life expectancy, and many people are perfectly happy with being overweight, even proud of it. But it's still their own actions that are the cause. And those who don't want to be overweight but are anyway because they're unable or unwilling to control their diet can't point at those with real problems and pretend that it's anything to do with them.

Speaking of frothing at the mouth, how exactly do you think people with genuine eating disorders feel when they see fat, lazy people using them as an excuse to be fat and lazy?

Ivor can joke about the chocolate bar, and I do laugh, but it's quite close to the truth for me. Oh, did I forget to mention that (my psychologist tells me) I have an eating disorder?

I have again deleted a frothing-at-the-mouth diatribe. My own experiences are not especially relevant to this discussion beyond Cuddles's question about how people with genuine eating disorders feel about it, and I don't want to derail the thread into a discussion of eating disorders as they are a tiny minority. I only mentioned it because I am tired of the unchallenged assumptions that 1) "discipline" around weight is universally a good thing and 2) that all fat people are only fat because they're lazy or greedy or ignorant. I have not even once seen an "except for eating-disordered people" disclaimer in a weight-related thread on this forum.

In the interest of answering Cuddles's question, though, it would not bother me (assuming I have a "real" eating disorder) because I would have no idea whether or not said fat, lazy person actually has an eating disorder. If you could somehow prove that this person is just fat because he's lazy, and his laziness is simple laziness without phobias or anxieties underlying it, then I might be briefly and mildly annoyed. The situation is so rare in my experience that it is trivial and not worth being upset over.

Or maybe since my "eating disorder" isn't making me thin, it's not a real one and my opinion is irrelevant. I imagine those with anorexia or bulimia may have a different opinion than mine, but I cannot speak for any of them.

I'm not claiming that 30% of the population has an eating disorder (I have no idea what the real number may be, but it seems likely quite small). For the record, my theory is more like what ZirconBlue proposed about changing lifestyles without changing biology (thumbs up, sir!).

What I am trying to say, in my clumsy way, is that any given fat person you meet could be like me, and that demonizing all fat people as lazy and self-indulgent is not helpful, original, or interesting. We can get that crap anywhere. Has there been a discussion I missed that was a little more thoughtful than "put the fork down"?

This is what interests me: What drives the average dude/dudette to gain weight in today's (presumably Westernized) society, where slenderness is next to godliness? What's spurring the obesity epidemic when, now more than ever, people want to be skinny? It's uninformative to read over and over again, "30% of people are just lazy and stupid (unlike me)." Why do some people -- but not others -- find it hard to put the fork down? How do appetite and satiety work/how are they related/unrelated? How has becoming a "car culture" affected general activity levels of the population? Why don't people compensate with other activities? What have been the historical advantages of overeating behavior/craving certain foods/etc, and how have they become disadvantages?

Again I say, you guys are smarter than I am. Please cast your pearls of wisdom before me. "tl;dr" counts.

 

[Obsequious]

Yes, please, more exploration of what ZirconBlue is talking about. Have there been any studies on these differences in preference? In appetite? Do these observable preferences actually correlate with differences in weight and/or health, as common sense would suggest, or not? What can we, as a society, do to help people who don't enjoy exercise? My psychologist is big into "tolerating discomfort," basically "suck it up and deal." Is this effective on a large scale (tee hee)?

 

[ZirconBlue]

Yes, please, more exploration of what ZirconBlue is talking about. Have there been any studies on these differences in preference? In appetite? Do these observable preferences actually correlate with differences in weight and/or health, as common sense would suggest, or not? What can we, as a society, do to help people who don't enjoy exercise? My psychologist is big into "tolerating discomfort," basically "suck it up and deal." Is this effective on a large scale (tee hee)?

For me, it's even more complicated than that. I enjoy exercise. . . once I get started. For some reason, I just can't seem to will myself to start very often. It's more a matter of perpetual procrastination than actual laziness. And it affects more than just exercise. Name just about any task, if I can get started I'll plug away at it for hours. It's that getting started that's the problem.

 

[Delscottio]

Except "enough" is a different value for each person. I smoked casually in college, quite a bit my freshman year, but less as time went by. Quitting smoking was incredibly easy for me, but I can still appreciate that it can be very difficult for others. I don't think I "wanted" it more than they do. It's just that it was so easy for me that hardly wanting it at all was still "enough".

Ever thought it was easy simply because you wanted it enough? You'll find alot of people who try to quit smoking aren't that committed to it, hell I wasn't the other times I tried to quit.

Anecdote alert. I smoked for over 15 years (20 a day minimum) and "tried" to quit loads of time to no success. It was too hard I just couldn't do it, until I just didn't want to smoke again. Hey presto it was very very easy because I wasn't going to give in. I had very few craving that I had the other times.

I appreciate losing weight can be "hard", I adore food but it comes down to burning more calories than I consume. If I want it enough I'll do it, just at the moment I don't want to motivate myself to do it.

 

[Delscottio]

For me, it's even more complicated than that. I enjoy exercise. . . once I get started. For some reason, I just can't seem to will myself to start very often. It's more a matter of perpetual procrastination than actual laziness. And it affects more than just exercise. Name just about any task, if I can get started I'll plug away at it for hours. It's that getting started that's the problem.

Opposite for me I am an awful starter/finisher, more a starter then find something else to start. When I come to lose weight I'll have to discipline myself to do a full training programme.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Ever thought it was easy simply because you wanted it enough?

No, I just never really became addicted to it for whatever reason. I never even made a decision to quit. I just tapered off slowly until one day I wasn't smoking at all.

You'll find alot of people who try to quit smoking aren't that committed to it, hell I wasn't the other times I tried to quit.

Sure. I think those are usually the people who have decided intellectually that it's a good idea to quit, but don't actually want to quit. They like smoking, they just know that they should quit.

It's something of a semantic debate, though, isn't it. I say it's "easier" for person A, you say that person A "wants it more". I'm sure that if a person wants it more then it will be easier for them. But, if we could measure "want", I suspect that we would find that 2 people with the same amount of "want" would still not necessarily find the task equally difficult.

 

[Delscottio]

No, I just never really became addicted to it for whatever reason. I never even made a decision to quit. I just tapered off slowly until one day I wasn't smoking at all.



Sure. I think those are usually the people who have decided intellectually that it's a good idea to quit, but don't actually want to quit. They like smoking, they just know that they should quit.

It's something of a semantic debate, though, isn't it. I say it's "easier" for person A, you say that person A "wants it more". I'm sure that if a person wants it more then it will be easier for them. But, if we could measure "want", I suspect that we would find that 2 people with the same amount of "want" would still not necessarily find the task equally difficult.

My personal take on the matter is getting into talk of "easier / harder" has given society as a whole a massive out to the obesity problem.

For some reason people fall over themselves to defend those of more portly proportions because it isn't there fault when in the vast vast majority of cases it is.

I have no problem with obese people, that is how we (I am probably not clinically obese but give me time ) have decided to look, what I do have a problem with is the denial involved with obesity.

 

[ZirconBlue]

For some reason people fall over themselves to defend those of more portly proportions because it isn't there fault when in the vast vast majority of cases it is.

And I don't think finding fault is too terribly useful. I certainly don't think the attitude you present is the prevailing one. I think disparagement of the overweight as fat and lazy with no willpower is a much more prevalent attitude than defense or, heaven forbid, sympathy. I don't think overweight people should just throw up their hands and say, "Oh, well, there's nothing I can do about it." But others telling them they're lazy and that they just need more willpower doesn't really help anything, does it?

My problem is really people that have never really had to work at being thin, who don't understand how difficult it really is for some people and who show no empathy whatsoever.

 

[Delscottio]

And I don't think finding fault is too terribly useful. I certainly don't think the attitude you present is the prevailing one. I think disparagement of the overweight as fat and lazy with no willpower is a much more prevalent attitude than defense or, heaven forbid, sympathy.

Sympathy? You've lost me now, why should an obese person be afforded sympathy? Everyone has a personal choice to make, the fact some people went down the route of consuming more calories then they burn doesn't afford them any sympathy or special pleading in my book.

I struggle to believe any adult in the US or UK doesn't understand the intake vs expenditure of calories leads to obesity.

I don't think overweight people should just throw up their hands and say, "Oh, well, there's nothing I can do about it." But others telling them they're lazy and that they just need more willpower doesn't really help anything, does it?

My problem is really people that have never really had to work at being thin, who don't understand how difficult it really is for some people and who show no empathy whatsoever.

I agreed with you here, but at the same time the pill shouldn't be sweetened to the point of greater levels of obesity.

 

[Beerina]

There are glandular and hormonal conditions that can cause people to become obese. These people didn't choose to be fat.

A study showed this was an extremely rare condition. Even "my metabolism is slow" was false almost all the time. They tracked some people very intensely and found the fat just ate too much for their level of exercise. The oxygen treadmill test thing showed the metabolisms were the same, too.

Why is it considered taboo to teach children proper dieting habits

Who says this?

and why are people pushing for "fat acceptance," which is essentially acceptance of a destructive habit?

They'd settle for just not making fun of them. How is that unreasonable? Don't you think they're aware they have health problems and attractiveness problems?

A cheerleader knows what it's like to walk into a room and have every member of the opposite sex want them.

I, on the other hand, know what it's like to walk into a room and have every member of the opposite sex not want them.

How would this affect one's worldviews, either way?

I don't have anything against people who are fat by choice. It's the sort of people who force their stigma on others that bother me, particularly in the medical field and with children.

Force? Let's see...

For example, from the NAAFA website, it says that one of the ways that our culture enables size discrimination is that it perpetuates thinness as being desirable. Why should thinness not be a desirable trait?

Because you're more likely to die than a "normal" weight person, who is more likely to die than an "overweight" (but not obese) person?

Sounds like it's in our interest to build up "curvy, Rubenesque" as the desired look, if you ask me.


As for the physical attraction issue, it's very difficult to achieve that. Also, it's related to the fashion industry, that wants living wire hangers on which to drape clothing without any distortion from the body. TV exacerbates this because almost everyone is thin, and hence that's where the "adds 20 pounds" concept comes from. You're not used to seeing normal weight people on TV.

Good riddence.

I would imagine that as a whole, particularly in western countries, being physically fit is considered sexually attractive and as being a far more desirable state to be in.

Some of the women get a little skinny in the booty, and stop looking quite as female as they should, IMO.

Why should medical care focus on promoting pleasurable rather than healthy dieting? I would imagine having sex without a condom would be more pleasurable, but is it a safe habit of getting into? Also, from a medical perspective, why promote physical activity that does not help an individual get healthier? Isn't the goal of modern medicine of keeping us healthy and prolonging a healthy, vibrant life?

The term used nowadays is "quality of life". That includes things like the tastiness of your food. It's interesting that jobs not based on manual labor were considered a step up in quality of life.

 

[Kaylee]

To use your example of preparing dinner, I certainly don't find that task too difficult. However, the best I can say about it is that it's a neutral experience. I don't dislike it, but I don't get any particular enjoyment from it either. It's just something that needs to be done. But it does require effort, regardless of how I feel about exerting that effort. So is it an act of will power for me to prepare dinner? Yes, insomuch that it requires me to perform a task from which I get no enjoyment. But at this point in my life, it's an exertion of will power I'm barely even aware of anymore.

Interesting. I find that preparing dinner seriously whets my appetite and that alone can cause me to eat too much. As a result what I've been doing for a long time now is cooking only once, perhaps twice a week at most and putting most of the food in either the freezer or refrigerator. This way I can have my own "fast food" that at most just needs to be heated up and is hopefully healthier than the commercially prepared fast food.

I don't particularly like having to set aside 3 or so hours a week to do a cooking marathon, but I do like the convenience of having food ready to go the rest of the week -- so I guess it's a wash.

Every so often when I have reason to believe that I've fallen behind the latest health/nutrition knowledge I set aside about an hour a week to read up on it and also possibly figure out recipes that incorporate that knowledge. Not my favorite way to spend time, but it does pay off.

Now excuse me while I go heat up some quinoa* for dinner.

(I didn't have a clue what that was a few years ago. BTW, it's very healthy, tasty, has complete protein and is extremely easy to prepare.)

 

[ZirconBlue]

Sympathy? You've lost me now, why should an obese person be afforded sympathy? Everyone has a personal choice to make, the fact some people went down the route of consuming more calories then they burn doesn't afford them any sympathy or special pleading in my book.

Thank you for making my point for me. "It's their own damn fault", they'll get no sympathy from me certainly is the prevailing attitude.

It's funny. I don't remember making any such choice. Fifteen years ago I could eat whatever I wanted without gaining any weight. Somewhere along the line that stopped being true. I don't know when. I just know that my clothes didn't fit anymore.

I struggle to believe any adult in the US or UK doesn't understand the intake vs expenditure of calories leads to obesity.

I struggle to believe any adult in the US or UK doesn't understand that smoking leads to a variety of health problems, including cancer.

Everyone has a personal choice to make, the fact some people went down the route of smoking cigarettes doesn't afford them any sympathy or special pleading in my book.

Smokers who have difficulty quitting don't deserve any sympathy?

Or is it that now that you've successfully quit you're better than them?

I agreed with you here, but at the same time the pill shouldn't be sweetened to the point of greater levels of obesity.

Well, personally, I'd prefer evidence that this even happens before I start worrying about it.

 

[arthwollipot]

30% of the US population is obese. Not just overweight, clinically obese. Yes, there are eating disorders and various other medical conditions that can make it difficult to keep your weight down. Are you seriously suggesting that a third of the US population suffers from some kind of genetic or mental disorder that causes them to be obese? Really?

I absolutely did not suggest this. I merely pointed out that there are medical conditions which can cause some people to be fat. I in no way suggested that all fat people suffer from these conditions.