Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

[Niggle]

Research is shifting more and more towards being based around patents. The patent lawyers are taking a more active role in research.

Are you really trying to say that a lawyer is qualified to research a scientific concept?

How much time has that lawyer spent in law school?

How much time has that lawyer spent in science classes?

I really doubt they're anywhere near equal.

 

[SezMe]

Anecdote Warning:

My son spent 4 years to get two BS degrees in engineering. Spent 3 years in law school plus a summer to pass the bar. Pretty close to equal. Became a consulting patent lawyer. Hated it. Now teaches English in Korea.

 

[realpaladin]

But here's the thing. His major claim is about certain specific professions that require a degree for certification. His feeling is that without government requirements, the market will be able to reap the benefits of unconventionally educated diamonds in the rough.

He won't be having an extremely financially great future, whatever he may think of himself.

Uncertified 'Diamonds in the rough' are hired because they actually produce something that is worthwile (everyone can publish nowadays).

Not because they are querelants; nobody that is this bent on debating wether or not something is good will ever get a job, because, like it or not, there are other people you have to work with as well. And they will be different. And if you do not fit the team, it's goodbye for you.

As I stated before, most of the people I hire *are* of the autodidact, independent learner type. But I picked them up from all kinds of places where I saw what they were capable of; demo coder parties, hacking conventions (visit the Hacking at the End of series in the Netherlands, originally started by a friend of mine, it is extreme fun and there you will find some extremely knowledgable audidacts) or from their publications on the net.

This guy, he just reeks of misplaced self-confidence with naught to show but an aggressive stance and a loud mouth.

Unable to organize so in his lifetime, nothing will change. Done with the little bugger.

 

[lightfire22000]

Anecdote Warning:

My son spent 4 years to get two BS degrees in engineering. Spent 3 years in law school plus a summer to pass the bar. Pretty close to equal. Became a consulting patent lawyer. Hated it. Now teaches English in Korea.

Cool. My folks want me to consider patent law. I looked into it and hated it.

 

[lightfire22000]

Robert Freitas Jr. is a major authority on Nanotechnology and is a critical medical researcher. I believe he has worked a lot of Eric Drexler. Freitas is a JD. That is just one example of lawyers emerging prominently in science.

Freitas is an excellent scientist and writer. I think the world is a better place because of him. However, the prospect of other JDs using their law licenses to exploit patents wrongfully disturbs me. I see ads in the classifieds for patent lawyers at labs frequently.

Sorry to all of the people to whom I owe responses. I'm busy.

 

[lightfire22000]

He won't be having an extremely financially great future, whatever he may think of himself.

Uncertified 'Diamonds in the rough' are hired because they actually produce something that is worthwile (everyone can publish nowadays).

Not because they are querelants; nobody that is this bent on debating wether or not something is good will ever get a job, because, like it or not, there are other people you have to work with as well. And they will be different. And if you do not fit the team, it's goodbye for you.

As I stated before, most of the people I hire *are* of the autodidact, independent learner type. But I picked them up from all kinds of places where I saw what they were capable of; demo coder parties, hacking conventions (visit the Hacking at the End of series in the Netherlands, originally started by a friend of mine, it is extreme fun and there you will find some extremely knowledgable audidacts) or from their publications on the net.

This guy, he just reeks of misplaced self-confidence with naught to show but an aggressive stance and a loud mouth.

Unable to organize so in his lifetime, nothing will change. Done with the little bugger.

Outside the web forum, I try to focus on accomplishing things.

My aggressive stance compensated for drkitten's stance. I also know where I stand reasonably well. I could be a lot better at it, but I'm not that bad at it. Education today is too regulated and structured. This prevents a lot of people from getting educations. There are a lot of potential "Diamonds in the Rough" who aren't utilizing their potential because schools aren't emerging to suit their needs. There are a lot of potential TESC's and Excelsior's out there, but bureaucracy is blocking them.

 

[realpaladin]

Outside the web forum, I try to focus on accomplishing things.

My aggressive stance compensated for drkitten's stance. I also know where I stand reasonably well. I could be a lot better at it, but I'm not that bad at it. Education today is too regulated and structured. This prevents a lot of people from getting educations. There are a lot of potential "Diamonds in the Rough" who aren't utilizing their potential because schools aren't emerging to suit their needs. There are a lot of potential TESC's and Excelsior's out there, but bureaucracy is blocking them.

You simply won't go far with your attitude. One extremely important part that schools play in adolescent life is social practice and social education.

It is only in the movies that the 'great loner' achieves something. In real life they usually turn out to be sad little things that might do horrible things like shooting the people they could not handle.

Education and intelligence are no substitute for being a well-rounded person.

Well-rounded, socialised people accomplish complex tasks because they can work together, in teams.

A team of averages can nicely and consistently outperform any diamonds. Whilst the diamonds you need to accept their idiosyncrasies?
Not with me.

Let them be frustrated and blame anyone they care; the U.S. has enough examples in extremis that neither school nor government can hold you back if you want to do great things.

If you, or the alleged diamonds, can not achieve great things, then it is because you, or the alleged diamonds, simply can not cope with life and reality as it is. That is it. Nothing more complex than that.

But seeing your penchant for trying to analyse and discuss everything, let me give you a tip that might really help you;

- Try not to work with what could be (like the blabla AnCap blabla you might someday reach).
- Try to see how everything now *does* work and make *use* of that.

I am pretty much what you would call a 'life hacker' (having been a cracker in the 80's, comes natural when you get older).

I am having too much fun with bureaucracy, and all the things you would simply call stupidity.
Be real intelligent, not make-belief intelligent as you are now, and *USE* the things you see.

Bickering and discussing things the way you are does not amount to a hill of beans.

 

[lightfire22000]

Well,
thanks for the advice realpaladin. I agree with most, if not all of the above post. I just don't think all of it applies. Note the "independent learners". You should learn from other people, but I don't think a piece of paper determines what someone knows.

"Bickering and discussing things the way you are does not amount to a hill of beans."
-That is completely true apparently since some of my posts didn't seem to do much good. Other posts did well. I also think the posts on the AnCap thread were generally good.

"Let them be frustrated and blame anyone they care; the U.S. has enough examples in extremis that neither school nor government can hold you back if you want to do great things."
--This is mostly true too. Government can hold people back occasionally and temporarily though they'll fail in the long run.

 

[realpaladin]

Well,
thanks for the advice realpaladin. I agree with most, if not all of the above post. I just don't think all of it applies. Note the "independent learners". You should learn from other people, but I don't think a piece of paper determines what someone knows.

I never said it does. In fact I even stated that for the majority of hiring I do I skip the whole resume part and give them an unexpected 'trial-by-fire'.

But whilst a piece of paper does not determine the person, the person does determine the piece of paper.

And for some skills you want proof that someone has had at least some formal training before they begin.

"Bickering and discussing things the way you are does not amount to a hill of beans."
-That is completely true apparently since some of my posts didn't seem to do much good. Other posts did well. I also think the posts on the AnCap thread were generally good.

I only post for three reasons:

- Fun or mischief.
- To learn something myself.
- To throw in my ounce (hmmm, the metrics thread would find this fun) of education.

I do not try to *convince* the other person, as I know that most arguments are decided at the start and people will confabulate whatever is necessary to have their own beliefs (and even the rational things are but beliefs) hold fast.

If my arguments can make another person see 'the light' so much the better. If not, I have lost nought; the person would have been doing his/her thing without me touching their live anyway.

I was once (damn, now I feel old) an incredible upstart, but I had the good fortune that I had friends that held to the adagium "sometimes you have to fight against someone you love to really fight for them".

They made me see that it is incredible hard to change things outside of myself, but that it is a lot easier to effect changes within myself.

So nowadays, when I do not like the way the game is going, I just change the rules, either within myself or I change my conditions of victory so I am not held by false pride to continue when I simply can not win under the current conditions.

When playing 'social games' like Trivial Pursuit or something I always state out loud "I will be honest about one thing; I *will* cheat!".

I am extremely enjoying the 'making use of the system'; it is a game of mine to see what 'dangerous substances' I can get through airport security (name one and I have gotten it through, bar weapons or explosives), I like hiring 15 taxi-cabs and letting them drive the roundabout for an hour because I like the yellow snake it provides, I love getting into secured area's without any credentials, I like playing 'the telephone game' by setting up a score of 'forward my messages' in hotels and then send a message to myself, I love making the Ukrainian army think I belong to the Russian Mafia and cross their borders without having to stand in line for ten hours.

I love being juvenile with grown-up stuff.

If you are a diamond in the rough you should see that you can 'ride' the systems without having to destroy them; much like someone doing Parcours/Free Running does with a city.

Enjoy your life. Enjoy your brains. Accept the world as it is and play with it.

And finally, when you do want to change something, try to get in the drivers seat. That will not happen when you are sour and grumpy about what is all wrong. It will happen when you enjoy the prospects of what could be right (yikes, that sounds too much like a sectarian babble, but trust me, it is true).

"Let them be frustrated and blame anyone they care; the U.S. has enough examples in extremis that neither school nor government can hold you back if you want to do great things."
--This is mostly true too. Government can hold people back occasionally and temporarily though they'll fail in the long run.

Forget about the government. If you think and work within their lines it is you playing catch-up. Let them play catch-up when you play according to new rules.

So, they want you to go to school and get a paper. So you do, but nothing prevents you from learning more and doing more extra-curricular stuff.

Then, you go to the starting grid, which you might hate, because 'they' devised it. But really, don't fret. Like the Nike ad says: Just do it.
And then finally your game starts; show off what you *can* do, not what others *should* have done, because they will not *have* done it or *do* it.

You are free when you decide to be free. No more, no less.

You yourself can do whatever you want to do. The only decision you have to make is if you want to accept the consequences of what others might or might not do because of your actions.

A government, no matter if it is oppressive as in Iran or as weak and extremely liberal as in the Netherlands, can not decide how you want to see the world.

Every time you say "but they..." you are relinquishing control to someone/something that is not you.

Try not to say '<suchandso> is crap', but try to say '<thisandthat> is better'. It makes a world of difference.

 

[arthwollipot]

Try not to say '<suchandso> is crap', but try to say '<thisandthat> is better'. It makes a world of difference.

I like the word "floccinaucinihilipilification". Most people don't even realise they're doing it until you point out that there's a word for it. And such a fun word too.

Floccinaucinihilipilification: The act of valuing something as worthless.

 

[realpaladin]

I like the word "floccinaucinihilipilification". Most people don't even realise they're doing it until you point out that there's a word for it. And such a fun word too.

Floccinaucinihilipilification: The act of valuing something as worthless.

Seems you are in good company then; Walter Scott, Heinlein... Arthwollipot

 

[lightfire22000]

If you are a diamond in the rough you should see that you can 'ride' the systems without having to destroy them; much like someone doing Parcours/Free Running does with a city.

Enjoy your life. Enjoy your brains. Accept the world as it is and play with it.

Thanks for the inspiring words in general but I don't think you will ever catch me doing Parcours. Not the extreme stuff anyways. Maybe stairwells.

I read The Number of the Beast so I knew floccinaucinihilpilification. I also know a lot of Latin so I could have derived it.

 

[realpaladin]

Thanks for the inspiring words in general but I don't think you will ever catch me doing Parcours. Not the extreme stuff anyways. Maybe stairwells.

I read The Number of the Beast so I knew floccinaucinihilpilification. I also know a lot of Latin so I could have derived it.

I don't do Parcours either, but I do it with my brain, with society, with my life.
Nothing is an obstacle, but everything is something to be played with.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

Lightfire 22000,

I fought very hard to finish my bachelors. I started a Community College program in 2001, tried three different majors, quite for a year to "be in the real world", and then got my act together, took school seriously, and got my grades high enough to transfer to a big, somewhat selective University. At that University, I got paid to conduct my own research project in the social sciences (I got my BA in Sociology) and this August I will start a five year MA & PhD program in Sociology and Demography, I will be fully-funded, and I will live out my dream!

Self learning is wonderful, and we don't do enough of it in K-12, and probably in college as well. But if you did not take advantage of "institutionalized" learning, then you were the problem, not the institution.

And how can you call yourself a pragmatic skeptic and then go on to make arguments that people (lots and lots of them) without formal education can score well on standardized tests- for which you have no evidence- and that will translate into high job perfomance- which you cannot prove- and that certification is withheld from people who are competent . . . So many flaws . . . I'm a little sad for you.

 

[lightfire22000]

Roswell,
I took advantage of it. I still do. I just don't like it and it's not accurate. I have ample evidence relating to test scores and I can prove it. Just look at the numbers posted by many TESC alumni. Look at the scores posted by homeschoolers. They're often vastly superior to most. I'm a pragmatic skeptic because I believe that institutional education doesn't work. It's too bureaucratic to function properly. Fundamentals and methodology are more important than brute memorization. Institutions have long forgotten this, or rather, they will never be able to teach this.

I'd also be interested in hearing your defense of all the state laws that banned obviously qualified physicians with D.O. degrees.

 

[lightfire22000]

http://www.freep.com/article/20090628/NEWS06/906280533/Why+don+t+colleges+cut+costs

Here is more evidence going my way on accreditation. It is gouging people out of time and money.

 

[drkitten]

http://www.freep.com/article/20090628/NEWS06/906280533/Why+don+t+colleges+cut+costs

Here is more evidence going my way on accreditation. It is gouging people out of time and money.

More epic fail. It doesn't say a word about accreditation.

It says that costs are rising:

That leaves some asking: Why is it university spending increases even while so many others are making do with less?

[...]

That's because the state aid part of the formula dwindled, and universities turned to tuition hikes to make up for the loss. After all, the cost of business doesn't go away, said Mike Boulus, executive director of the Presidents Council, State Universities of Michigan.

"I didn't get a raise this year, I get that," he said. "But that doesn't mean that utility costs aren't going up."

For universities, protecting revenues is an issue of maintaining quality.

WSU, where the Board of Governors is to tackle the question of tuition Wednesday, has cut $50 million from its budgets over the last several years through measures such as scaling back building maintenance and installing efficient energy systems, said Rob Kohrman, budget director.

But slashing pay for faculty, researchers and top brass is risky business.

Those human line items make up about 70% to 80% of a university's budget, but they also attract top students, wealthy donors and research funds.

Do you even bother to read the drivel you post?

 

[lightfire22000]

Do you? You use phrases like "epic fail" that make you sound high or something.

Accreditation makes college costs rise even when the market dictates that they drop.

 

[lightfire22000]

Do you? You use phrases like "epic fail" that make you sound high or something.

Accreditation makes college costs rise even when the market dictates that they drop.

It's a trust or a government sanctioned monopoly.

 

[drkitten]

Do you? You use phrases like "epic fail" that make you sound high or something.

Accreditation makes college costs rise even when the market dictates that they drop.

So the answer is, "no, you don't even read the drivel you post."

The final paragraphs of the article you cite specifically discuss the reasons for rising costs. And, oddly enough, they're exactly the part that the accreditation agencies don't care about and don't even bother to examine (like "concerts and plays")

Michigan's college-bound generally grew up in a better economy. Many had their own bedrooms and bathrooms. They're nutrition and exercise conscious. They want to study abroad and learn in the most high-tech labs.

While growth in science and technology education may better position students for Michigan' evolving economy, "it costs a lot more in a welding lab, where you have to have a welding robot, than to teach the English language and those types of things," said Sally DePew, Ferris State University's budget director.

It's marketplace pressure that's hard to ignore -- a multimillion-dollar, keep-up-with-the-Joneses competition.

"It's the idea that 'They've got a new dorm, so we have to have a new one, too,' " said Bennett at the Center for College Affordability.

"Our students don't want to come and just sit in a classroom and leave. They want to be involved in clubs and go to athletic events and go to concerts and plays," said John Beaghan, vice president of finance at Oakland University. "All that is part of a university experience."