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29 Structural & Civil Engineers Cite Evidence for Controlled Explosive Demolition

Pure denial.
If God said WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration you would dispute it.

There are enough points to confirm beyond all doubt that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration.
Ah, of course! It turns out my detailed list of causes for errors that can easily accumulate up to 5% was wrong because even you, Christopher7, can handwave it away. Well, if my arguments can't withstand a simple wave of the hand, they can't be very good.
I'll have to go hide in shame somewhere else then, and leave you and your hand alone together, the way you should be.

If the measurements were not accurate NIST would not have stated unequivocally that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration.

The measurements are accurate and you are talking thru your hat.
Thanks for confirming that you still do not understand what accuracy is.

I'll be in the peanut gallery.

Bye.
 
Toke,

Not bad...

... for a Socialist. :eye-poppi
Thank you Comrade:D


PS. Of course, if a superb artisan used any of these techniques, ignorant twoofers would say that they were "fudging their data to get the answer that the NWO wanted"...??!!

I don´t think there is any way to bugde the hardcore thruthers.:(
 
Toke,

Thank you Comrade:D

It must give you a sense of wonder, perhaps power, to know that you - personally - are what terrified the political and military establishment US of A for the last half century.

Kinda like you could come to Washington DC, walk into the Capitol building on a tour, put on a big "Hi, I'm a Socialist" name tag. And the first time somebody noticed it, looked them in the eyes and whispered "Boo!"...

... and watched 'em fall over in a dead faint.

If it were me, I wouldn't be able to stop myself.

As it is, I have to satisfy my urges by going down to Hah-vahd Squay-yuh** in Cambridge Mass, and casually dropping a comment that I'm a conservative.

Suddenly, you'd think I had the pox...

Great fun.

tom

** It's not fair that I expect you to recognize local dialects. This is the local phonetic pronunciation of "Harvard Square", local bastion of rampant unchecked, presumptive liberalism...
 
I didn't read a percent of the report so far, but I would be satisfied with the explanation that they buckled for unclear reasons, or simply overloading due to load redistribution.
That's blind faith.
Do you really think The Bush administration deserves your blind faith?

1. It could and did in the simulation.
Garbage in garbage out. Read the relevant portions of the report instead of hand waving.

3. No one will ever know if it did in reality
I know because I read the report. There no damage to the girders around the columns in Group 7 [middle line]. The debris damage did not damage the girders in the south line [Group 8]. There was no damage to floors in the west half of the building due to fire.

Please educate yourself instead of hand waving a blatant lie that blows the NIST scenario out of the water.

Columns 65 and 68 were in elevator shafts and not subject to damage from the fires.
To double check the others, I used the find function and looked at every instance where the numbers 59 and 62 appeared. There was NO mention of damage to columns 59 and 62. You can do the same. You should also read the section on fire damage. You well quickly see that all the damage was in the east half of the building. If you refuse to even look at the facts then you are an intellectual coward and you have no business engaging in a discussion when you don't know the facts.
 
What exactly is not accurate? The time? The distance?

No wonder you didn't answer my question. You have no idea what precision or accuracy means. That's okay. Try to learn from these guys. It's a fascinating and extremely useful concept.
 
That's blind faith.
.
No blind faith was required. The experts found the causes of the progressive collapse. Those causes stood up to attacks on their viability by the engineers.

Do you really think The Bush administration deserves your blind faith?
.
Do you really think that a small army of pig headed engineers give a rat's butt what GWB WANTED the answer to be?

Must be a pain to be old enough to have grown children, and still view the world with the self-righteous, self-indulgent, self-deluding teenage angst that "everyone else is corrupt".

Garbage in garbage out. Read the relevant portions of the report instead of hand waving.
.
Well, Chris, let's see if you follow your own advice here...

I know because I read the report. There no damage to the girders around the columns in Group 7 [middle line]. The debris damage did not damage the girders in the south line [Group 8]. There was no damage to floors in the west half of the building due to fire.

Please educate yourself instead of hand waving a blatant lie that blows the NIST scenario out of the water.

Columns 65 and 68 were in elevator shafts and not subject to damage from the fires.
To double check the others, I used the find function and looked at every instance where the numbers 59 and 62 appeared. There was NO mention of damage to columns 59 and 62. You can do the same. You should also read the section on fire damage. You well quickly see that all the damage was in the east half of the building. If you refuse to even look at the facts then you are an intellectual coward and you have no business engaging in a discussion when you don't know the facts.
.
Perhaps you read the report. More likely, you scanned thru random segments, lost in what seemed to you to be impenetrable techno-babble.

But CLEARLY you did not UNDERSTAND the report. Or its conclusions.

I would point you to the following conclusions. Which prove that all of your babblings above are irrelevant.

NCSTAR1-9, vol 2 pg 604 (pdf 266)

"The simulation with the same fire-induced damage as the best estimate simulation, but with no debris impact damage, identified the same initiating event and timing of that event as did the best estimate simulation. This simulation also led to global collapse of the building, further indicating that the debris impact damage was not a principal contributor to the occurrence of collapse..."

In other words, Chris, the impact damage from the collapse of WTC1 was irrelevant to the collapse.

"WTC 7 was prone to classic progressive collapse in the absence of debris impact and fire- induced damage when a section of Column 79 between Floors 11 and 13 was removed. The collapse sequence demonstrated a vertical and horizontal progression of failure upon the removal of the Column 79 section, followed by buckling of exterior columns, which led to the collapse of the entire building."

In other words, Chris, the un-fought, un-sprinkled, multi-story fires around columns 79 ALONE were enough to bring that building down.

The ENTIRE rest of the building could have been PERFECTLY pristine, undamaged in the slightest. But if those fires led to expansion of those long transfer beams, shearing of floor connections & end supports, collapse of those floors and destabilization of column 79, then the building was doomed.

So ALL of the crap that you posted above about undamaged areas here & there, lack of fires here or there, etc. is explicitly identified by NIST as irrelevant.

Care to explain again how you "read the report"??
 
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Pure denial.
If God said WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration you would dispute it.

There are enough points to confirm beyond all doubt that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration.

If the measurements were not accurate NIST would not have stated unequivocally that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration.

The measurements are accurate and you are talking thru your hat.

C7 this is idiot talk. What do you mean by accurate. You haven't got a clue do you?

Bet you had no idea that the pixels in a video image may not be captured at the same time? Ever heard of interlacing?
 
Ok, seems that we have talked for 15 pages about the WTC 7 freefall collapse. Considering this is the strongest part of the ae911truth article from their 29 experts, then perhaps we can talk about the rest of it.

The ae911truth article about their "29 experts" appears to be an odious piece of work that has been crafted to misinform and mislead the reader.

How can the ae9/11truth movement claim that they have 29 experts, when these experts list their own experience as " I used explosives on roads",“none provided”, “ I am a new graduate “, " After working as a Junior Engineer, I returned to pursue a Masters degree(just short)" or “I graduated in 2007”. The latter was probably 14 years old on 9/11.

Ok Chistopher7, I agree that it is more important to discuss facts and failure, but how in your wildest imagination can you believe that the statements from ae911truth are truth. Are you trying to pretend that the ae911truth article was a simple error or omission and not a deliberate falsehood…??

And then they add “ A note About 9/11 “Debunkers”. In which they say “these debunkers predictably moved the goalpost, saying that we didn’t have any engineers who knew about heavy steel structures, such as tall buildings. Since the 28 engineers interviewed for this article do in fact possess that knowledge, the goalposts will no doubt just be moved again. This kind of behavior should make it clear the nature of the game that is being played. One word for it is sophistry.”

Even if the whole CD theory was valid, do you think that its OK for the ae911truth people to lie and manipulate the truth like this to achieve their goals; because they clearly do.
 
Pure denial.
If God said WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration you would dispute it.

There are enough points to confirm beyond all doubt that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration.

If the measurements were not accurate NIST would not have stated unequivocally that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration.

The measurements are accurate and you are talking thru your hat.


Whenever a "truther" prattles about something being "beyond all doubt," the farce is over. You've been caught. You have no idea of what you're raving about. Real engineers have tried in vain to explain the difference between g and almost-g. You won't listen. Do us all a favor and stop pretending you have a point to make.

Your silly notion that hundreds of engineers and physicists are all lying to support an utterly pointless crime is an embarrassment.
 
.
No blind faith was required. The experts found the causes of the progressive collapse. Those causes stood up to attacks on their viability by the engineers.


.
Do you really think that a small army of pig headed engineers give a rat's butt what GWB WANTED the answer to be?
I resemble that remark!

Although I prefer the words "Noble" "dedicated" and "unswervingly dedicated to doing it right", "Pig-headed" and "mulish" are good, visceral words...
 
No wonder you didn't answer my question. You have no idea what precision or accuracy means. That's okay. Try to learn from these guys. It's a fascinating and extremely useful concept.
These guys don't know diddly squat. They use verbiage to bluff their way thru denial. NIST said that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration and these guys are trying to say the analysis isn't accurate. Claims of expertise from anonymous posters are worthless.
 
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So ALL of the crap that you posted above about undamaged areas here & there, lack of fires here or there, etc. is explicitly identified by NIST as irrelevant.
This is axiomatic. Group 7 could not fail before Group 8 because the girders between them gave north south lateral support to the columns in Group 7.

You won't address this directly. You just hand wave it and talk about me or something else.

Can you understand these simple drawings?
Can you see that Group 7 is between Groups 6 and 8?
Can you figure out that the Girders between Group 7 and Groups 6 and 8 gave north south lateral support to the columns in Group 7?

corecolumnnumbercomposi.jpg
 
Thank you Comrade:D
It must give you a sense of wonder, perhaps power, to know that you - personally - are what terrified the political and military establishment US of A for the last half century.
Mostly wonder:D, and some amusement, Socialism is a very wide definition.
The real silly thing is how people try to demonice Obama as a socialist:eye-poppi
I don´t think anyone outside the US would call him that.

Ok, equally silly is the truthers needing to make up reasons to dislike bush/cheney, there are perfectly good real ones:D.

First time I heard of the moon hoax I wondered why the soviets had not said anything, that is a much simpler debunk than studying moon fotografy.
Same for 9/11, if there were anything obvius wrong there would be engineers all over the world saying so.

I have not studied the event much.

My hands on, intuitive, experince with buckeling collums stop at 6m steel lenghts. (they gain a lot of wobellyty from 1m to 6m)
I find it natural that buildings collapse if left to burn long enough.


It´s strange, I don´t like communism and learned my sig long before having heard of Marx. Guess he just repeated an obvius truth, and got it somewhat discredited.
 
These guys don't know diddly squat. They use verbiage to bluff their way thru denial. NIST said that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration and these guys are trying to say the analysis isn't accurate. Claims of expertise from anonymous posters are worthless.

Er ... and this from a person who couldn't see that a graph was velocity vs. time and not position vs. time? And so though the point in question was stationary?

That's almost funny.
 
These guys don't know diddly squat. They use verbiage to bluff their way thru denial. NIST said that WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration and these guys are trying to say the analysis isn't accurate. Claims of expertise from anonymous posters are worthless.

And your patehtic filthy lies continue.
 
Er ... and this from a person who couldn't see that a graph was velocity vs. time and not position vs. time? And so though the point in question was stationary? That's almost funny.
Almost :cool:
I was wrong. I'm not a physicist, I'm a carpenter and I understand framing. When I read this;

"The middle line of interior columns directly behind the initially severed exterior columns buckled before the two north-south lines of columns immediately to their east. The middle line of interior columns lost lateral support in the north-south direction over 11 floors in response to the structural damage that was imposed."

I knew what they were talking about Group 7 because I have read the relevant parts of the Final report. I also knew that Group 7 was between Groups 6 & 8 and gets its north-south lateral support from them.

Group 7 could not collapse before Group 6 or 8. [see graphic above]
 
Here's my assessment of Chander's analysis.

I've broken it down into three specific errors that Chandler has made. Plus several "technique" improvements that Chandler could have performed to improve his results.

Outright errors in Chandler's analysis.
1. Not using position vs. time data. Use of central difference approximation to estimate velocity.
2. Not performing a competent error analysis.
3. Using the 1.75 second data point. This is a clear outlier.

Techniques that would have improved his results.
1. Use of high-res, uncompressed video
2. Adaptive data sampling instead of fixed interval (higher rate at areas of greater interest / higher velocity).
3. Use of virtual data point to obtain better curve fit.
4. Choose data points with consistent pixel intensity (e.g., 50% between pre & post intensity values).
5. Incorporate video raster scan timing correction.
6. Lots of video processing techniques. (interlace, contrast enhancement, edge detection, etc.)


I'll discuss only the errors.

1. Use of central difference approximation to estimate instantaneous velocity.
The principle error was to NOT use the position vs. time data to generate an empirical equation for the position vs. time, then differentiating that function for velocity vs. time, and differentiating again for acceleration vs. time. This approach would have conditioned the data (i.e., reduced errors) before beginning to manipulate it.

The use of the central difference approximation put large amounts of error into Chandler's raw data. There is no reason to do this. Look at the quality of the curve fit of the position vs. time data in Figure 12-76 (NCSTAR1-9 vol 2, pg. 602 pdf 264). Compare this with the quality of the curve fit of the velocity vs. time curve of figure 12-77 on the next page.

The result is that there is no comparison. The position vs. time data is far superior to the velocity vs. time data. The reason is simple.

The average velocity between two points is given by Vavg = C*(p2 - p1)/(t2 - t1).
where t1 & t2 are the times of the two frames.
p1 & p2 are the pixel numbers of the two points
C = pixel scaling constant (feet / pixel).

t1 & t2 can be determined quite accurately from the frame numbers, so they aren't the problem. But the z values can have moderate errors to them. When you subtract two numbers that are close to each other, but have moderate errors, the answer will have significantly larger precent errors.

By taking this approach, Chandler introduces large errors into his starting data. The proper technique is to smooth the data as early as possible. In signal processing, it is good practice to implement signal conditioning (i.e., cleaning up the signal) PRIOR to amplifying the signal. That way, you don't amplify the noise along with the signal. This is, in essence, what Chandler has done: he's manipulating data that he's introduced a lot of granularity. Differentiating a granular signal in essence dramatically amplifies the step functions in the input data. The empirical equations are much, MUCH better behaved.

In this particular case, the empirical equation that NIST generated is given in Fig 12-76. It is:

latex.php


Differentiating this expression with respect to time gives the empirical equation for velocity vs. time, which is exactly the equation of the solid line of Fig 12-77.

latex.php


Differentiating this equation once more gives the acceleration vs. time.

latex.php


(Thank you, Mathematica.)

Here is a table of the drop distance (ft), velocity (ft/sec), acceleration (ft/sec^2) and acceleration (%G) as a function of time for the first 5 seconds. This is taken directly from the video data. It's the same data that Chandler folded, spindled & mutilated.

...Time... | ...Drop... | ...Velocity... | ...Accel... | ....%G....
(sec) | (feet) | (feet/sec) | (feet/sec2) |
0.00 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
0.25 | 0.0 | 0.1 | 1.1 | 3%
0.50 | 0.1 | 0.6 | 3.2 | 10%
0.75 | 0.4 | 1.7 | 5.8 | 18%
1.00 | 1.0 | 3.6 | 9.0 | 28%
1.25 | 2.2 | 6.3 | 12.5 | 39%
1.50 | 4.2 | 9.9 | 16.2 | 50%
1.75 | 7.2 | 14.4 | 20.1 | 62%
2.00 | 11.5 | 19.9 | 23.9 | 74%
2.25 | 17.3 | 26.3 | 27.5 | 85%
2.50 | 24.8 | 33.6 | 30.6 | 95%
2.75 | 34.1 | 41.6 | 33.0 | 102%
3.00 | 45.6 | 50.0 | 34.4 | 107%
3.25 | 59.2 | 58.7 | 34.6 | 108%
3.50 | 74.9 | 67.2 | 33.4 | 104%
3.75 | 92.7 | 75.3 | 30.7 | 95%
4.00 | 112.0 | 82.4 | 26.3 | 82%
4.25 | 134.0 | 88.3 | 20.5 | 64%
4.50 | 156.0 | 92.6 | 13.3 | 41%
4.75 | 180.0 | 94.9 | 5.1 | 16%
5.00 | 204.0 | 95.1 | -3.6 | -11%
5.25 | 227.0 | 93.1 | -12.3 | -38%
Let's plot the results.

Here is the drop distance (blue line), Velocity (red) and acceleration (yellow) vs time for the first 5 seconds.


picture.php


Now, let's plot the acceleration (as a percent of g) vs time. This gives an ACCURATE accounting of how the acceleration changes as a function of time.

The blue line is the behavior of WTC7's roof top. The red line is the TRUE waveform for an object in free fall (ignoring air resistance).

picture.php



One can see IMMEDIATELY that Chandler's claim that, over the interval of 1.75 to 4.00 seconds, the acceleration is a constant that is equal to G, as well as NIST's statement that it is "a constant approximately equal to G" is nonsense. The acceleration isn't close to being constant.

And this graph, right here, is why I said that the acceleration looked nothing like free fall. The RED LINE looks like free fall. The blue line could not possibly look more different.

Last comment. Figuring out the BEST ESTIMATE for the integrated average acceleration over the period from 1.75 seconds to 4.00 seconds, calls simply for solving the definite integral of the acceleration as a function of time between those integration limits and then dividing by (4.00 - 1.75 = ) 2.25 seconds.

The answer for that is 30.24 ft/sec^2. Which is equal to 0.94G. This is a number that I can believe. And everything about this analysis makes perfect sense.

Note that Chandler (or whomever) STILL needs to perform a complete error analysis in order to provide accuracy bounds on his answer.

tom
 
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tfk, I have a question.

Your table contains raw video data, did I understand that correctly? If so, how did you differentiate it? Or are the derivatives from the NIST curve fit?
 
I predict post #777 will be handwaved by a carpenter who cant read graphs correctly.
 

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