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29 Structural & Civil Engineers Cite Evidence for Controlled Explosive Demolition

Chris stop wasting everyone's time with the large fonts. Takes me and others longer to read through your posts. Using large fonts gives me the impression of a fanatic screaming blather. I for one would prefer to readyour position without having to constantly suppress the first impression of raving madness.
 
Why would they need to be quoted as believing the official report. THEY FREAKING WROTE IT!!!!!!!!!!! Why would they need to say, Yes, I endorse this, if they SIGNED THEIR NAMES AT THE BOTTOM!?!?!?!?!?!

bingo...don't worry, I don't expect Christopher7 to understand it...and even if he did, he would likely make much ado about it simply to do so.

TAM:)
 
The topic is the 29 x-perts. Their insane idea of controlled demolition is supported by their talk. Like Chris they have no evidence of controlled demolition. Chris posts moronic delusions about free fall and fails to tie it to controlled demolition as he ignores the internal collapse prior to the facade falling. He is like the 29 experts with some crazy ideas on WTC7 but they never do the hard engineering, they just talk.

From the extra credit, 3 time cited, x-pert who offers only talk:
Graham John Inman, structural engineer, of London, England, points out: "WTC 7 Building could not have collapsed as a result of internal fire and external debris. NO plane hit this building. This is the only case of a steel frame building collapsing through fire in the world. The fire on this building was small & localized therefore what is the cause?"
So Inman implies a building has to be hit by a plane to fall. He failed, fire has destroyed many buildings. It looks like he might support WTC towers falling because planes hit them. Is is a A&E guy, or just a quote mined special?

WTC was on fire - office fires are enough to cause collapse. Fire destroyed One Meridian Plaza, it is gone, a sky scraper with fire fought by firemen; firemen left for fear of collapse. Fire destroyed Windsor Building in Madrid, the building was totaled by fire; the fire was fought by firemen and only stood due to concrete core. Why does fire do this. Because steel is weak when heated.

One Meridian Plaza; feared it would collapse until fire was put out by sprinklers saving the collapse, not saving the structure. Totaled by fire. Just fire.
onemeridiansag.jpg

Steel is not good in fire.
woodsteelfire.jpg


wtc7fire3.jpg

Hate to see what this dolt on fires calls large fires. Expert 0, Fire Wins.

But an eyewitness to the fire of WTC7 on 911 said; there are thousands and Chris and the other 911 liars will ignore them because it will destroy their insane moronic conclusions based on failed ideas and hearsay.
That’s when I saw WTC7 on fire. I didn’t even notice it at first. There was hot dust and debris raining down, thick smoke billowing overhead. Building 7 wasn’t even a blip on my radar. But then I noticed it. It was on fire like the towering inferno. I mean flames were everywhere. I thought there were flames coming out on all floors, but I guess that’s because of all of the smoke. I kept looking at the building. It had so much debris up against it, and I mean big huge chucks of debris. Without you actually being there, you just can’t get the enormous scale of the disaster. The twisted steel and chunks of concrete were just so huge that my mind couldn’t comprehend it. And these were piled up against the building and sticking out of it at some levels. I can’t stress enough how enormous these beams and debris were. All of the pictures show the pile, but without actually seeing it, it is truly indescribable. WTC7 had granite of marble façade and there were HUGE cracks going up and down the façade too.

Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2041454#post2041454

Chris can't comment on the thread topic because like him his x-perts only talk of hearsay, lies and delusions when it comes to controlled demolition. They have no evidence so the only thing they can do is repeat free fall and make up lies.

The thread is about 29 x-perts who only have talk just like Christopher7 to support their delusions on 911. Poor x-pert John Inman only has talk no calculations, not even as much BS as Christopher7 brings. You do not need to be a failed engineer to make up lies about 911 as good as the failed engineers who can't understand high-rise buildings.

This is all the expert said to become the x-pert for 911Lies.
Graham John Inman, structural engineer, of London, England, points out: "WTC 7 Building could not have collapsed as a result of internal fire and external debris. NO plane hit this building. This is the only case of a steel frame building collapsing through fire in the world. The fire on this building was small & localized therefore what is the cause?"
He must of missed the steel frame buildings that fall in fire. I have two high-rise buildings totaled by fire and the fire were fought. WTC7 fire not fought and it fell. Two other buildings fires fought but buildings totaled. I see no logic in Inman's failed ideas and he has not done the work, the calculations, or presented the engineering to back up his opinion.

29+ x-perts = zero evidence on 911
 
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Uh, no. Engineers have an ethical obligation to demand the removal of their name from a publication that they don't agree with. If they don't, than they don't have any serious disagreement with the conclusions/methods/results. They also have an obligation to show how it is wrong if they think so.

Please read the engineering code of ethics, you obviously have no clue how my profession works:

http://www.asce.org/inside/codeofethics.cfm

Or they get fired!
 
Heiwa.

I love this truther cannard. All of the engineers in the world are AFRAID to speak out against NIST and the common narrative because they will be fired for it.

I know plenty of engineers in Saudi Arabia, a few in Iran, and some in China who would LOVE to be able to find ANYTHING wrong with NIST. According to them, if they could discredit it, they would have ANYTHING they wanted given to them.

I mean, we all know that peer reviewed engineering journals in places like Iran, Venezuela and North Korea are terrified that the US might catch on to them. Oh wait... they aren't. And those countries HATE the US. Yet twoofs can't get a single paper through any of their journals. Why is that again? Oh fear of being fired... I forgot.
 
Or they get fired!

And then they sue their employer for wrongful firing, get the local board of licensure involved, revoke the licenses of the managers and end up living the rest of their life in comfort from the damages awarded in the lawsuit and the resulting book and movie deals.
 
And then they sue their employer for wrongful firing, get the local board of licensure involved, revoke the licenses of the managers and end up living the rest of their life in comfort from the damages awarded in the lawsuit and the resulting book and movie deals.

Good idea! Suggest it to relevant NIST staff.
 
Good idea! Suggest it to relevant NIST staff.

How to deal with ethical/business conflicts is taught in engineering 101. The professionals on the NIST team have all probably had to deal with this before. Which should lead everyone to conclude that there are no ethical/business conflicts.
 
The penthouse housed mechanical systems. Ie: Air conditioning, elevator motors, generators, boilers, etc. etc. These items all weigh thousands of tons. Why would the penthouse collapse NOT have anything to do with the WTC7 collapse? I know your on our side, but I just have to explain what exactly is housed inside those buidlings, so you understand how much bearing the penthouse has on the collapse.
 
The penthouse housed mechanical systems. Ie: Air conditioning, elevator motors, generators, boilers, etc. etc. These items all weigh thousands of tons. Why would the penthouse collapse NOT have anything to do with the WTC7 collapse? I know your on our side, but I just have to explain what exactly is housed inside those buidlings, so you understand how much bearing the penthouse has on the collapse.
I guess this one's directed at me.
Well, all the more reason for the building to be gutted when that crashes through. Thanks!

ETA: By the way, I didn't say it didn't have anything to do with it. I said it doesn't really matter. My reasoning is that if the top of a building falls down through the building, the insides can't be all that sturdy anymore. But alright, the point is well taken. I'll try to refrain from saying stupid things about buildings and stick to comments on rocket science.
 
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I have to say, I can't see why the penthouse would be a "heavy structure", but I don't think that matters.
So Cristopher, when the top of a building falls in, apparently the building is gutted. 200 m high walls don't stand by themselves. What fell at freefall was just the facade; an empty shell.
Wrong.
It was not an empty shell except for the east end. The 18 core columns under the screenwall and west penthouse failed about 1 second before the exterior walls and pulled them down according to NIST.

In order for the building to fall at free fall for 105 feet, all the supports must be removed on 7 floors within 2.25 seconds. Free fall acceleration can only occur if there is NO resistance.
 
Chris,

One of us, and ONLY one of us, knows what he is talking about here. The other one is struggling to interpret what NIST is saying, is pulling phrases out of disparate sections and trying to string them together in a way that makes sense.

I see that my simply saying that I've got a mechanical engineering degree, 35 years experience & taught this stuff in college was not enough to get you exercise a modicum of caution. Even if technical respect was too much to ask.

You've caught me in a good mood, Chris, so I won't cut you off at the ankles. I'll give you a FINAL chance to open your ears & learn a little bit.

Let's discuss for a moment this reply of yours. And I'll explain where you are misunderstanding. I'll also explain where NIST kinda/sorta screwed the pooch. (With a generous explanation as to why.)

Look at NCSTAR1-9, vol 2, Figure 12-77, page 603, (pdf pg. 265)

This is the graph that you are insisting shows that "the north face descended at free fall acceleration".

He did not explain away the fact that ... WTC 7 fell at free fall acceleration for 105 feet!

On NIST 1A pg 45 it says:
"In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration"
This is another way of saying "free fall acceleration"
They continue:
"This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft)"

The entire building* fell at free fall [gravitational] acceleration for 105 feet.

* 9-1 Vol.2 pg 588 [pdf 250]
"the entire building above the buckled-column region moved downward as a single unit, resulting in the global collapse of WTC 7."

It does NOT say that the building "fell at free fall [gravitational] acceleration for THE FIRST 8 stories (105 ft)".

In fact, the building does NOT fall at free fall acceleration for THE FIRST 105 feet. Or for the first 2 seconds. It falls near "G" for the time between 2 seconds & 4 seconds. Between 0 & 2 seconds, it falls at dramatically "lower than G" acceleration.

Try to understand this. It is rudimentary.

Figure 12-77 is a velocity versus time graph. The SLOPE (i.e. the steepness) of any velocity vs. time graph at any given point gives the instantaneous value of the acceleration at that point.

Now look at Fig 12-77 again.

The black line is the velocity. The slope of the black line at any time is the acceleration at that time.

Between 0 and 2 seconds, the slope of the black line starts out close to zero (virtually horizontal) and gradually increases to a value that causes the curve to run approximately parallel to the straight (i.e., linear) red line.

Now look at the red line. It's equation is given in the box in the lower right as v(t) = -44.773 + 32.196t.

Do you see that "32.196" number. That is the SLOPE of the linear (red) curve. Since the velocity is given in (ft/sec) and the time is given in (seconds), that means that the slope of that line is calculated to be 32.196 feet/sec^2.

Guess what the acceleration of gravity is, Chris. At sea level, it is just about 32.2 ft/sec^2. (It varies slightly, due to altitude, latitude & local masses.)

Next, do you see that "-44.773" number, Chris. That number tells you INSTANTLY that what you have been assuming (that it fell at G for the FIRST 105 feet) is wrong. If what you said were true, that -44.773 number would be zero. And the red line would go thru the origin (0,0) of this graph.
__

Now look at the "power equation" (velocity as a function of time) given in the upper left corner of the Figure.

v(t) = 247.52 (0.18562 t)2.5126 e[-(18562 t) 3.5126]
This is an empirical "best fit" equation. It fits the data points pretty well between 0 and 4 seconds. Above 4 seconds, it goes to hell. This curve is singularly meaningless, EXCEPT that we can use it to numerically calculate the real value of the acceleration for the first couple of seconds.

Taking the time derivative of this equation gives you:
(c'mon, Chris. It's calculus. It's fun.)

a(t) = c1*c2*c3*e(-c2*t)c4) * ((c2*t)(c3-1)) - c1*c2*c4*e(-c2*t)c4 * (c2*t)(c3+c4-1)
where {c1, c2, c3, c4} are the constants used in the empirical equation {247.52, 0.18562, 2.5126, 3.5126} respectively.

Plugging in the values for time between 0 and 3 seconds (at 0.5 second intervals) gives you:


Time | Accel
(sec) | (ft/sec^2)
0.0 | 0.00
0.5 | 3.17
1.0 | 8.98
1.5 | 16.2
2.0 | 23.9
2.5 | 30.6
3.0 | 34.4
3.5 | 33.4
4.0 | 26.3
.
Note that the math agrees with the visual of the curve. The acceleration starts very low and increases to a value CLOSE TO (slightly greater than) the value of G (32.2 ft/sec^2).

This is real, Chris. These are the real values of the downward acceleration of the North Wall, after it starts to fall.

Now I repeat what I knew before, and you didn't understand. It does NOT fall at "G" as soon as it starts to collapse. There is a substantial resistance to falling for the first 2 seconds. It falls much slower than "G". The acceleration increases, until for a 2 second interval from 2.0 seconds to 4.0 seconds in this time frame, it falls slightly less than (i.e., near, not "at") "G". (Note: this interval is from 8.9 seconds to 10.9 seconds in the "standard, east penthouse" time frame.)

Are you starting to understand?

Do you want to continue to toss a temper tantrum? Or would you like to calm down a bit & learn?

Tom

NIST's mistakes on this curve are the following:

1. They never should have published their numbers to 5 decimal places. 3 TOPS. A generous interpretation is that the person who prepared this chart knew this, but couldn't figure out how to get MS Excel to only print 3 digits. (I've been there myself.) A less generous interpretation is that the person is a product of the "calculator generation" (instead of the "slide rule generation"). Calculators deny a person a visceral understanding of the "imprecision of experimental data".

2. The empirical exponential equation is meaningless. They shouldn't have included it. This is an example of a kid who put the equation in there because he COULD put it in. Not because it meant something. The curve itself is OK, but they should have truncated it above 4 seconds.

3. The data point at 1.75 seconds is an outlier. It should not have been included in the linear data regression. This is an "artistic" call. My art is better than this graph-author's art.
 
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Wrong.
It was not an empty shell except for the east end. The 18 core columns under the screenwall and west penthouse failed about 1 second before the exterior walls and pulled them down according to NIST.

In order for the building to fall at free fall for 105 feet, all the supports must be removed on 7 floors within 2.25 seconds. Free fall acceleration can only occur if there is NO resistance.
Seeing how the timeline tfk quoted says it took over six seconds between the collapse of the penthouse and the north facade, I'll have to check this. Also, the term freefall, when used by NIST in this context cannot possibly be taken to mean exact freefall, since this is only possible in a perfect vacuum. No engineer would take it that way. I'm convinced that when I read the passage, I will find that it is to be taken as a "virtually unimpeded fall". I'm downloading the report now, so I'll get back on it.
 
Air resistance is negligible ONLY at low speeds. As the speed increases, then air resistance increases at a rate that is approximately proportional to the velocity squared. As the force of air resistance the acceleration decreases.
Finally, the object reaches terminal velocity, at which point the acceleration is ZERO.
The building was falling at low speed. All that is irrelevant and you know it.

In the case of WTC7, the important air resistance is NOT the aero drag as it falls. It is evacuating the ground floor's air as it crushes down.
A building cannot fall at free fall acceleration and crush framework. Free fall acceleration can only occur if there is NO resistance. You know that too.

Fig, 12-77. There are a couple of blatant idiocies associated with this graph. Anyone who REALLY knows numbers & graphs can immediately see what those errors are.
Do YOU see them?
And I stand by what I said. The building fell NEAR free fall acceleration. It did NOT fall AT free fall acceleration.

I am NOT guessing, Chris.

Tom
The graph shows free fall acceleration for 2.25 seconds. The error is the line NIST overlayed turns down at 4s when the data dots go up. This is irrelevant as free fall occurred between 1.75s and 4s.

David chandler proved free fall acceleration and forced NIST to admit it. They did in the final report. You are blowing smoke.

On NIST 1A pg 45 it says:
"In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration"
This is another way of saying "free fall acceleration"
They continue:
"This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft)"

The entire building* fell at free fall [gravitational] acceleration for 105 feet.

* 9-1 Vol.2 pg 588 [pdf 250]
"the entire building above the buckled-column region moved downward as a single unit, resulting in the global collapse of WTC 7."
 
OMG, he's onto something!

It's all becoming so clear now!

It had to be an inside job!

Commited by evil leprechauns!

How could you all not see!
 

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