Parents Think Boy Is Reincarnated Pilot

[Sean84]

Instinct is only verifiable as it is repeated throughout generations, and is only presented when some stimulus prompts it; i.e. a baby learns how to suck because it's hungry... A typical failing of the species. The baby still has to learn how to suckle, it's not necessarily automatic, hence all the crying. A baby does not simply remember how to suck a tit because the mother did it. It is not memory, it is a factor of how the brain forms.

Long story short: Dismiss as troll.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Long story short: Dismiss as troll.

Just dropping in here to say that I know Marduk pretty well, and he's definitely not a troll. I have learnt a lot from him over the past five or so years.

 

[Sean84]

If my assessment was hasty then I apologize, but the recent exchange seemed to warrant it.

 

[Marduk]

Are you really unable to read your own quote or are you just being a troll?

I didn't say anything about anything except to ask you for evidence supporting the statement you made which I quoted.

see there you go again with the rudeness
I said nothing about reincarnation, I said past life memories, and thats exactly what instinct is, hardwired memory inherited from our parents I'm sorry youre not capable of reading what I posted (and not what you imagined I posted), it was formatted in English, if english isn't your first language I can translate it into whatever is if it helps

btw your behaviour is way more trollish than mine, you are the one here who seems incapable of rational thought, you were rude, and now youre being rude again.
did I accidentally tread on your bridge
?

 

[Marduk]

Goodness you have a whole CT built up around this.

From my perspective, you made a remark that indicated you believed in reincarnation, just not the reincarnation in the OP. Instead of clarifying you were equating instinct to memory, you've wasted all this time stewing in your CT about my intent.

Pity. I hate wasting time.

how many times do I have to tell you I wasn't talking about reincarnation, can you post the word "reincarnation" from my statement which clearly said "past life memory" can you not distinguish a memory from a reincarnation ?

life must be so difficult for you when you are incapable of admitting you were wrong. doesn't do your rep much good showing people that skill publically either

 

[Marduk]

Definitely not. A memory is a recollection of a something which has occurred. Instinct is the process of pre-programming behavior. Would you call it a past life memory because your heart beats? How about the fact babies know how to suck? Moving down the continuum, do ducklings act on some memory of how to imprint on their parent shortly after birth?

My dogs imprinted on all dogs they met the first year of their lives. Those dogs are identified as in the pack now regardless of the time between seeing them. All dogs after that first year are identified as not in the pack regardless of how I try to get my dogs to see them as friendly.

Is it a reflex when they chase bunnies or memory?


None of those instincts are memory driven.

yup, its clear youre out of your depth here, consider, how does your body know how to do anything, it does so from genes inherited from your parents, instinct is part of this, the fact that it is controlled by the hippocampus proves that instinct is memory driven and its memories that we didn't generate ourselves, you seem to be claiming that instincts just magically appear at birth, that clearly is not the case

 

[Marduk]

Instinct is only verifiable as it is repeated throughout generations, and is only presented when some stimulus prompts it; i.e. a baby learns how to suck because it's hungry... A typical failing of the species. The baby still has to learn how to suckle, it's not necessarily automatic, hence all the crying. A baby does not simply remember how to suck a tit because the mother did it. It is not memory, it is a factor of how the brain forms.

Long story short: Dismiss as troll.

youre a towell

you said it yourself

it is repeated throughout generations

so those memories come from a past generation, how in any way could that not be described as past life memory ?

 

[Marduk]

now I'm going topost this again because it seems that no one bothered to read it the last time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

Instincts are thought to occur as fixed action patterns. These fixed action patterns are unlearned and inherited.

this proves that instinct is not learned after birth, thats what the word "inherited" means

Both memory-driven and innate behaviour is made hippocampal-dependent by innate and acquired conflicting tendencies and not the class of stimulus presented.

this proves that instinct is controlled in the hippocampus
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0010945208708827
this proves that the hippocampus is responsible for long term memory

The hippocampus is a major component of the brains of humans and other mammals. It belongs to the limbic system and plays important roles in long term memory and spatial navigation.

Fair enough, you want to believe this information is trolling, because you can't handle the truth thats fine, thats your problem, but don't accuse me of trolling because you are incapable of answering a simple question, that question

if instinct is not controlled by the hippocampus as science says it is and is not inherited from our parents as science says it is, then where is it controlled and what is its source

A general reminder - please re-read the OP and stay on topic. This thread is not about the composition of the human brain or where "instinct comes from." You are welcome to discuss such topics, but start a new thread in the appropriate Forum section to do so.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[dlorde]

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but when you say:

I do think there are genuine cases of people having past life memories

in a thread explicitly discussing extraordinary cases of alleged past life memories, then subsequently claim it was a statement about instinctive behaviour, it sounds disingenuous to say the least...

We're supposed to believe that you were effectively saying that you 'think there are genuine cases of people having instinctive behaviour' ? That you suddenly introduced new semantics for 'past life memories' to the thread just to say something bafflingly mundane?

 

[Marduk]

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but when you say: in a thread explicitly discussing extraordinary cases of alleged past life memories, then subsequently claim it was a statement about instinctive behaviour, it sounds disingenuous to say the least...

I had no original intention of elaborating

We're supposed to believe that you were effectively saying that you 'think there are genuine cases of people having instinctive behaviour' ? That you suddenly introduced new semantics for 'past life memories' to the thread just to say something bafflingly mundane?

nope, I'm pointing out that instinctive behaviour is based on real past life memory, you don't think genuine past life memories are worth discussing in a thread about past life memories then why bother to post ?

 

[dlorde]

nope, I'm pointing out that instinctive behaviour is based on real past life memory

Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly what you mean by 'past life memory', since (as I implied earlier) it doesn't seem to be the meaning use in this thread up to that point - unless you are suggesting that a single individual's memories of life can be inherited and described 'instinctively' by their inheritors ?

...[if] you don't think genuine past life memories are worth discussing in a thread about past life memories then why bother to post ?

my post wasn't about whether past life memories, genuine or otherwise, are worth discussing, but whether what you posted was consistent or credible.

 

[Marduk]

Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly what you mean by 'past life memory', since (as I implied earlier) it doesn't seem to be the meaning use in this thread up to that point - unless you are suggesting that a single individual's memories of life can be inherited and described 'instinctively' by their inheritors ?

Is there a scientific basis for that not being possible, I think I have shown already that instincts are past life group memories (by any definition), isn't it possible that on certain occaisons individual memories can be inherited by the same process ?
what about the first instinct, imagine a rabbits new instinct shortly after the evolution of a fox, it has to have started off as a passed on individual memory doesn't it ?

for James the boy this thread is based on that would mean that the story of the dead pilot he believes he was, was told to one of the individuals that supplied his genetic inheritance, a grandparent perhaps. It would mean there is a scientific basis for past life memory recall (even though that life isn't the persons who remembers it), where there isn't one for reincarnation.

my post wasn't about whether past life memories, genuine or otherwise, are worth discussing, but whether what you posted was consistent or credible.

I am fully aware why you posted, your usage of "disingenious" and "bafflingly mundane" made it quite clear you weren't interested so much as discussing the credible information I posted fully supported by credible links which proves my point of view is scientific as you were slagging me off for your own personal reasons. But really, am not bothered by your rudeness in the slightest any more than I was by Scepticgirls, I'm just interested in discussing the facts

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Instinct is only verifiable as it is repeated throughout generations, and is only presented when some stimulus prompts it; i.e. a baby learns how to suck because it's hungry... A typical failing of the species. The baby still has to learn how to suckle, it's not necessarily automatic, hence all the crying. A baby does not simply remember how to suck a tit because the mother did it. It is not memory, it is a factor of how the brain forms.

Long story short: Dismiss as troll.

Infant sucking is a reflex, not a learned behavior. Fetuses suck in the womb including sucking their thumbs. I doubt they have learned to eat their thumbs.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

see there you go again with the rudeness
I said nothing about reincarnation, I said past life memories, and thats exactly what instinct is, hardwired memory inherited from our parents I'm sorry youre not capable of reading what I posted (and not what you imagined I posted), it was formatted in English, if english isn't your first language I can translate it into whatever is if it helps

btw your behaviour is way more trollish than mine, you are the one here who seems incapable of rational thought, you were rude, and now youre being rude again.
did I accidentally tread on your bridge
?

It's not rudeness, it's frankness.

What you posted was based on the false premise that instinct and memory were equivalent. Had you simply cleared that up in the beginning, we'd be done with this sidetrack.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

how many times do I have to tell you I wasn't talking about reincarnation, can you post the word "reincarnation" from my statement which clearly said "past life memory" can you not distinguish a memory from a reincarnation ?

life must be so difficult for you when you are incapable of admitting you were wrong. doesn't do your rep much good showing people that skill publically either

Take a deep calming breath. Now please go back and read post #178. Note the word, reincarnation, is not in the post.

 

[RichardR]

Is there a scientific basis for that not being possible, I think I have shown already that instincts are past life group memories (by any definition),

Not by any definition, no. What's your definition?

isn't it possible that on certain occaisons individual memories can be inherited by the same process ?

I don't see how. At least, I can think of no reason to suppose this happens.

what about the first instinct, imagine a rabbits new instinct shortly after the evolution of a fox, it has to have started off as a passed on individual memory doesn't it ?

Why?

 

[Marduk]

It's not rudeness, it's frankness.

What you posted was based on the false premise that instinct and memory were equivalent. Had you simply cleared that up in the beginning, we'd be done with this sidetrack.

frankly my dear it was rude,

memory and instinct are the same, instinct is controlled by the brains memory centre, I'd value your opinion more if youd actually bothered to read the links I posted that already proved that

 

[Marduk]

Not by any definition, no. What's your definition?



I don't see how. At least, I can think of no reason to suppose this happens.



Why?

my opinion is backed by the facts that I have posted and linked to, denying the truth of them isn't doing anyone any favours. I'm really not interested in peoples unqualified opinions unless they are at least based on supporting evidence

thanks

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

yup, its clear youre out of your depth here, consider, how does your body know how to do anything, it does so from genes inherited from your parents, instinct is part of this, the fact that it is controlled by the hippocampus proves that instinct is memory driven and its memories that we didn't generate ourselves, you seem to be claiming that instincts just magically appear at birth, that clearly is not the case

Finally, a discussion emerges.

Instinct and memory are distinctly different. Your rationale which you claim "proves" instinct is memory driven is faulty.

Here are some links to the neurobiological aspects of each demonstrating the difference.

Cognitive Psychology and Cognitive Neuroscience/Memory, an online textbook

Johns Hopkins Neuroscientists Watch Memories Form In Real Time

THE COGNITIVE NEUROSCIENCE OF MEMORY

One of the most important conceptual developments in cognitive theorizing is the subdivision of memory into three separate processes of encoding, storage and retrieval. Encoding, which can be further broken down into acquisition and consolidation stages, involves the laying down of a memory trace. Storage is the maintenance of a memory trace over time while retrieval is the process of reactivating a stored memory for current use.

Instinct, from Wiki

Instinctual actions - in contrast to actions based on learning which are served by memory and which provide individually stored successful reactions built upon experience - have no learning curve, they are hard-wired and ready to use without learning, but do depend on maturational processes to appear.

 

[dlorde]

Is there a scientific basis for that not being possible

AFAIAA there's no credible evidence and no known mechanism for such a thing. But there are good models for instinctive behaviour and known epigenetic phenomena.

I think I have shown already that instincts are past life group memories (by any definition), isn't it possible that on certain occaisons individual memories can be inherited by the same process ?

No. Instincts are only past life group memories in the sense that DNA is a group memory. They are inherited behaviours resulting from natural selection, individual memory is not relevant.

what about the first instinct, imagine a rabbits new instinct shortly after the evolution of a fox, it has to have started off as a passed on individual memory doesn't it ?

No - there is no 'new instinct' (if by 'instinct' you mean the popular idea of a fixed action pattern that is unlearned and inherited). Instincts in this sense have nothing to do with individual memory. Foxes is a continuously evolving creature, as are rabbits - if they are both in the same environment and one preys on the other they will have co-evolved from the earliest ancestors in that relationship, and their behaviours will have co-evolved too. The rabbit's responses to a fox will typically be the responses evolved by generations of rabbits that have survived predation by predators like foxes. If they behave a certain way and survive, the genetic components of that behaviour can pass to their progeny.

for James the boy this thread is based on that would mean that the story of the dead pilot he believes he was, was told to one of the individuals that supplied his genetic inheritance, a grandparent perhaps

It's obviously possible that an grandparent heard the story.

It would mean there is a scientific basis for past life memory recall (even though that life isn't the persons who remembers it), where there isn't one for reincarnation.

It doesn't follow at all that the story could be passed genetically to offspring. There are no known or possible mechanisms for such individual memories to be encoded in genetic material, and no known or possible mechanism for them to be decoded from genetic material into equivalent memories in the child - and there's no good reason why such mechanisms might be present (have evolved). Occam's Razor applies.

Speculating wildly, consider the situation if it was possible - many (all?) children would 'inherit' such memories - so many (all?) people would be swamped with the memories of stories heard by their parents and ancestors that they believed to be their own...

I am fully aware why you posted, your usage of "disingenious" and "bafflingly mundane" made it quite clear you weren't interested so much as discussing the credible information I posted fully supported by credible links which proves my point of view is scientific as you were slagging me off for your own personal reasons.

I wasn't discussing any information you posted, other than simply pointing out that the explanation you gave for your original statement "I do think there are genuine cases of people having past life memories" was not credible to a reasonable reader. I don't know why you explained it that way, rather than admitting it was a mistake, or defending it as written, but you did. It was sufficiently absurd for me to add my opinion of it to the other similar opinions.

But really, am not bothered by your rudeness in the slightest any more than I was by Scepticgirls, I'm just interested in discussing the facts

If you think it was rude to point out how absurd your explanation sounded, that's your prerogative.