Deeper than primes

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There is a big difference between successor and immediate successor.

Yes, I think I said that. Why do you feel it necessary to repeat it?

Exactly because of this difference Y number is a successor of the numbers of [X,Y) and not an immediate successor of the numbers of [X,Y), as you claim (and again, to claim that an interval has an immediate successor or a successor is an utter gibberish, because "<" relation (that without it there is no meaning to order, in this case) holds only between the real numbers of the given intervals).

Repeating this nonsense doesn't make it true. The order relation, symbolized by "<", holds (as you like to say) just fine between intervals. For someone who continually ridicules what he perceives to be the thinking abilities of others, it is amazing just how limited your own imagination is.
 
Repeating this nonsense doesn't make it true.
Wow, you took these words to you right out of my mouth, are you a mind reader or something?

The order relation, symbolized by "<", holds (as you like to say) just fine between intervals.
No, it holds only between the real numbers of that intervals, and any conclusions about intervals are totally based on these numbers (in the case of "<" relation).

For someone who continually ridicules what he perceives to be the thinking abilities of others, it is amazing just how limited your own imagination is.
Now "imagination" is used by you in order to support your failure.

We did not see any much of it, especially in your case.

Furthermore, you do not distinguish between illusion and imagination in your illusionary "B interval is an immediate successor of A interval" game.
 
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Please identify the real number between the real number interval [1,2) and the real number 2
There is no such a thing "the real number interval".

Real number is not an interval.

Real number is the element that enables the existence of an interval, in the first place.

For example [X,X] existence depends on X existence, and not vice versa.

Since this is the case then any "<" relation between intervals, is actually the "<" relation between the numbers of the intervals.

Furthermore, suppose that an empty interval [,] is a valid interval, but since it has no numbers, we cannot use "<" relation in its case.

In other words, "<" has a meaning only between numbers (in the case of intervals) and since we deal here with real numbers, and no real number has an immediate successor, then so is the case with [1,2) interval and number2; 2 is not an immediate successor of any real number of that interval, whether you like it or not.
 
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Doron, if you can't grasp such simple concepts as intervals and immediate successors, I somehow doubt that you have the answer to the problems you claim exist in mathematics. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say those problems don't exist, either.
 
There is no such a thing "the real number interval".

Real number is not an interval.

Given English is not your first language one might presume that you have simply misunderstood the statement. However since we have spent a considerable amount of time discussing intervals particularly those involving real numbers it appears only an attempt at obfuscation by you.

Real number is the element that enables the existence of an interval, in the first place.

For example [X,X] existence depends on X existence, and not vice versa.

Technically it is ordering that enables the existence of an interval or more specifically members in a set representing and interval.

Since this is the case then any "<" relation between intervals, is actually the "<" relation between the numbers of the intervals.

You continue to claim that yet still have not shown your work comparing each element in the two intervals you claim to have been “done” comparing before.

Furthermore, suppose that an empty interval [,] is a valid interval, but since it has no numbers, we cannot use "<" relation in its case.

Big deal you are using something that is not an interval to make a point that is not about intervals.

You are confused ordering is a specific requirement of an interval not the result or something ‘used’ as the result of one. The interval [A,B] results in an empty set when B < A. So the ordering relations “<” and “>”, or more specifically “≤” and “≥” when boundaries are included, are an intrinsic part of an interval as is the fact that there must be an A and a B (even if A = B), indicative of the ordering in that interval notation. [A] is not an interval but [A,A] is

If A = B then [A,B] or [B,A] results in just A which is the same as B
If A < B then [A,B] results in a non-empty set while [B,A] results in an empty set
If A > B then [A,B] results in a empty set while [B,A] results in an non-empty set

In other words, "<" has a meaning only between numbers (in the case of intervals) and since we deal here with real numbers, and no real number has an immediate successor, then so is the case with [1,2) interval and number2; 2 is not an immediate successor of any real number of that interval, whether you like it or not.

Since ordering is an intrinsic part of an interval ordering relations do indeed have meaning when applied to intervals or between intervals and numbers, without that intrinsic meaning the interval itself would be meaningless.

Again

Please identify the real number between the real number interval (or interval in the reals if you insist) [1,2) and the real number 2 or any real number in that interval that is not less then 2.
 
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I think it is time to move on from this, Doron. It is a worse failure than your foray into topology. You need to try something new.
 
I think it is time to move on from this, Doron. It is a worse failure than your foray into topology. You need to try something new.


I say he is long over due for a change in meaningless terminology for his dichotomy, might I suggest ‘Dog/Cat intermingling’.
 
Doron, if you can't grasp such simple concepts as intervals and immediate successors, I somehow doubt that you have the answer to the problems you claim exist in mathematics. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say those problems don't exist, either.

zooterkin,

There is a "little" difference between you and me in the interval\successor case.

I explicitly show why no interval has an immediate successor.

You on the contrary use "up to but not including" as your argument that supports the existence of an immediate successor to some interval.

Let us analyze your "up to but not including" argument.

[X,Y) is an interval such that any real number z ≤ real number X AND < real number Y.

As can be clearly seen "<" relation has a meaning only if it used between real numbers, in this case.

Since the term "successor" or "immediate successor" totally depends on "<" relation, and since "<" relation has a meaning only if it used between real numbers (in this case), then since Y is a real number (and no real number is an immediate successor of any other real number) then we clearly can conclude that [X,Y) has no immediate successor.

Since you did not define your "up to", you actually have no clue of what you are talking about.

At the moment that you try to define your "up to", then and only then you will be in the stage to say something about this case.
 
You continue to claim that yet still have not shown your work comparing each element in the two intervals you claim to have been “done” comparing before.

I have a short cut. You do not have to count infinitely many real numbers.

All you have to know is that no real number is an immediate successor of another real number.
If A = B then [A,B] or [B,A] results in just A which is the same as B
If A < B then [A,B] results in a non-empty set while [B,A] results in an empty set
If A > B then [A,B] results in a empty set while [B,A] results in an non-empty set
You forgot one thing. A<B expression has a meaning only according to the values of A and B, and the values of A and B are based on real numbers, if A and B are intervals or A and B are themselves real numbers.


Since ordering is an intrinsic part of an interval ordering relations do indeed have meaning when applied to intervals or between intervals and numbers, without that intrinsic meaning the interval itself would be meaningless.
What you call "intrinsic meaning" does not have any meaning without the values of the real numbers, in this case.

Again

Please identify the real number between the real number interval (or interval in the reals if you insist) [1,2) and the real number 2 or any real number in that interval that is not less then 2.
Given any arbitrary real number z that is in [1,2) , there is real number h such that z<h<2.

Since there is always h between z and 2, then 2 is not an immediate successor of [1,2).
 
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I have a short cut. You do not have to count infinitely many real numbers.

So were you lying just to yourself or actually trying to lie to us with your requirement that each element of one interval needs to be compared with each element of the other and when you claimed to be "done" with that element to element comparison I requested? How do you know you did not miss some element in your ‘short cut’? Again show your work or continue lying (at least to yourself) about what you require and what you in fact do.

All you have to know is that no real number is an immediate successor of another real number.

While all you need to know is, well, math. Are you planning to understand the above statement and why at least one interval is required in the reals to define an immediate successor (or immediate predecessor) anytime soon? Just as the lacking of some interval in the reals allows one to define both an immediate successor and immediate predecessor in DESCRETE MATH.

You forgot one thing. A<B expression has a meaning only according to the values of A and B, and the values of A and B are based on real numbers, if A and B are intervals or A and B are themselves real numbers.

Um, no, the relationship of those variables is given, the actual ‘values’ are irrelevant beyond that requirement. Why is it you seem to have such a problem understanding that a variable is variable and can take a range of values? This is the power and flexibility of math, that we can make, confirm or disprove assertions based on the common properties of such ranges of values or variables.


What you call "intrinsic meaning" does not have any meaning without the values of the real numbers, in this case.

Again the values are irrelevant beyond the given requirements and the properties of the reals are as intrinsic to those intervals as is the ordering specifically because of the required ordering. In fact more so since we are not dealing with a single real number, the relationship of one real number to another or the relationship of any finite number of reals, but the relationship of an infinite number of reals, something that can not be “done” on an element to element basis.


Given any arbitrary real number z the is in [1,2) , there is real number h such that z<h<2.

Since there is always h between z and 2, then 2 is not an immediate successor of [1,2).

Again

Please identify the real number between the real number interval (or interval in the reals if you insist) [1,2) and the real number 2 or any real number in that interval that is not less then 2.
 
This comes from the guy who said that he would never respond back to The Man. How's that working for you?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya

P.S.: How come you won't define "kosher number"?

He just can't help himself, unfortunately.
 
I explicitly show why no interval has an immediate successor.
No, you don't.
You on the contrary use "up to but not including" as your argument that supports the existence of an immediate successor to some interval.
It's not part of my argument, merely a description, in English, of the interval.

What do you think [3, 5) means?
 
because "<" is meaningless without these elements (thet exist both in [3,5) and [5,5]


[3,5) < [5,5] is gibberish if we ignore the elements of [3,5) and [5,5].

Since this is the case, then [3,5) does not have an immediate successor.

But it was you who said (in 3537) that the ordering operator '<' is valid if it compares 'things of the same type', e.g. intervals, but not things of differing types:
If we wish to extend the use of "<" relation beyond numbers, then this relation must be used between things of the same type.

For example: if A and B are intervals, then B is indeed the immediate successor of A, as long as we ignore A and B elements.
...
A = [X,…

B = [Y,…

B immediately follows A, and B is an immediate successor of A exactly because A and B are of the same type (both of them are intervals, in this case).
Since jsfisher spiked your guns by substituting [Y,Y] for Y, so that [X,Y) < [Y,Y] is valid according to your own strange rules, and [Y,Y] is the immediate successor of [X,Y) by your own admission (above), you are now explicitly contradicting your previous assertion and saying that [3,5) < [5,5] is gibberish if you ignore their elements...

You can't have it both ways.
 
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doronshadmi said:
Given any arbitrary real number z that is in [1,2) , there is real number h such that z<h<2.

Since there is always h between z and 2, then 2 is not an immediate successor of [1,2).

The Man said:
Please identify the real number between the real number interval (or interval in the reals if you insist) [1,2) and the real number 2 or any real number in that interval that is not less then 2.

z and h are variables.

Why is it you seem to have such a problem understanding that a variable is variable and can take a range of values?
 
Probably the same reason he can't, or won't, define 'crisp id' or give any examples.

No, you can't grasp simple things like http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4702871&postcount=2782 .

Now we know why.

Each time when you ask a question you actually fall into an endless loop and nothing is left in your brain for getting the answer.

Here is a concrete example: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4798360&postcount=3619 .
 
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