"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

[thaiboxerken]

In the meantime one of the US soldiers shot outside of Washington by a Islamic nutjob. died. No media coverage, no statement from Obama.
Nice double standard.

If there was no media coverage, how did you find out? Also, who are you saying has the double-standard?

 

[Fiona]

I've heard stories of people waiting for as long as a year to adopt a child.

It takes 9 months in the normal course of events. I don't think that is such a long time in the scheme of things. If this is correct then there is less of a problem than I had thought.

 

[Whiplash]

.
Pro-life as we know it admits no grey area.
The woman MUST bear the child.
Any other viewpoint is pro-choice, and there are many many reasons to consider the choice and counsel the woman.
But it is the only rational situation.

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. There are some people who consider themselves "pro-life" who also still consider it to be reasonable for their to be abortion in cases where the life of the mother or child are at risk, and even rape an incest.

One of the things about the entire abortion debate that really bugs me is the constant wrangling over terminology. Extreme pro-lifers will call pro-choice people "pro-abortion" (or worse). Extreme pro-choice advocates will also refuse to call people "pro-life" and insist on using the term "anti-choice" to describe them.

Both sides describe the other in the same way. In the extreme example. Pro-choice people really want to have abortions like crazy, and live sinful lives without remorse! Pro-lifers are all hardcore "no abortions, ever, I don't care if you are stinkin' dying" nazis.

It's painting too broadly. There are a huge number of opinions in between there. And existing labels are insufficient (in my opinion) to cover the spectrum anymore.

 

[BenBurch]

Wow Ben, that was incredibly nice of you, especially considering that I was pretty brutal towards you during the election stuff. I feel bad about that now. I let my emotions get the better of me.

Thank you very much, and to everyone else who is giving me a chance. I'm trying very hard to learn from you guys and open my mind.

Thanks Ben, that was very kind of you.

You're welcome.

Elections are SUPPOSED to be brutal. Its what we do instead of fighting succession wars, after all.

 

[Fiona]

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. There are some people who consider themselves "pro-life" who also still consider it to be reasonable for their to be abortion in cases where the life of the mother or child are at risk, and even rape an incest.

It is entirely fair. Whether they believe that abortion should be allowed in some circumstances or none they do not believe the woman should have the choice: they think someone else should. The rest is irrelevant

 

[BenBurch]

If there were no abortion, and lots and lots of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome babies, babies with HIV, and worse, getting born that are not now born, especially babies "of color," I assure you that these women I argued with would NOT be standing at line for a HIV+ black baby to adopt.

 

[boloboffin]

George Tiller had buttons printed of his personal motto: "Trust women."

American Prospect: The Compassion of Dr. Tiller

Late-term abortion is often spoken of as the most morally dubious aspect of the abortion debate. Many people who are nominally pro-choice, particularly politicians, are quick to condemn it, to treat the work that Tiller did as repugnant even if it's legal.

Ironically, though, many of the procedures Tiller did were as far away from the much-reviled concept of "abortion on demand" as one could get. Unwanted pregnancy can, to some extent, be prevented. A pregnancy that goes horribly wrong cannot. Almost anyone of child-bearing age could end up needing Tiller's services. And now some of them will be forced to carry pregnancies to term against their will even when their fetuses can't survive outside the womb.

Bill Harrison, an abortion provider in Arkansas, referred hundreds of patients to Tiller over the years. "To do what George does is like doing major cancer surgery," he says. "It's a subspecialty all its own. It took a real organization to do it safely and effectively and cheaply like he did it." Over the years, Harrison had 20 or 30 patients who were so poor that he had to give them money for gasoline to get to Wichita. "I would call him and tell him about the patients, and he would say, 'Send them up,'" he says. "Obviously if they couldn't pay for gasoline, they couldn't pay for anything, and he did the abortions anyway."

Including the poor ones.

 

[Cleon]

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. There are some people who consider themselves "pro-life" who also still consider it to be reasonable for their to be abortion in cases where the life of the mother or child are at risk, and even rape an incest.

One of the things about the entire abortion debate that really bugs me is the constant wrangling over terminology. Extreme pro-lifers will call pro-choice people "pro-abortion" (or worse). Extreme pro-choice advocates will also refuse to call people "pro-life" and insist on using the term "anti-choice" to describe them.

Both sides describe the other in the same way. In the extreme example. Pro-choice people really want to have abortions like crazy, and live sinful lives without remorse! Pro-lifers are all hardcore "no abortions, ever, I don't care if you are stinkin' dying" nazis.

It's painting too broadly. There are a huge number of opinions in between there. And existing labels are insufficient (in my opinion) to cover the spectrum anymore.

I agree with you to a large extent, however, I would argue that "anti-choice" makes much more sense than "pro-abortion."

The "pro-choice" side advocates women being able to choose for themselves, whether they choose to have an abortion or not. There aren't a lot of "pro-choice" activists actively promoting abortion per se, so "pro-abortion" fails immediately.

The anti-abortion side doesn't think women should be able to make that choice. The moderate elements, which you talk about, think that maybe in some cases she should be allowed to have an abortion, but by and large they don't want women to have that particular choice available. They are "anti-choice."

Personally, I hate the term "anti-choice" because it feels contrived and (like "Islamofascist") seems designed to spread a particular message rather than be an accurate description of the movement's views.

I tend to prefer "anti-abortion;" I don't think there's any doubt that it's accurate, and relatively baggage-free. I find the term "pro-life" to be laughable, both for the reasons above and because the majority of "pro-lifers" don't seem to have a problem with capital punishment.

For abortion rights activists, I use the term "pro-choice" because I have yet to find a better one; "pro-abortion" doesn't work, "pro-abortion-rights" is clumsy, and "pro-womens-right-to-do-with-her-body-what-she-damn-well-wants-without-old-male-politicians-telling-her-no" just doesn't fit on a placard.

 

[garcia<3]

I tend to prefer "anti-abortion;" I don't think there's any doubt that it's accurate, and relatively baggage-free. I find the term "pro-life" to be laughable, both for the reasons above and because the majority of "pro-lifers" don't seem to have a problem with capital punishment.

I agree with this, to be "pro life" seems impossible. Not only would you have to be vegan but you would never be able to ejaculate or bleed every month, think of all those living cells being killed off, my goodness

 

[Cleon]

I agree with this, to be "pro life" seems impossible. Not only would you have to be vegan but you would never be able to ejaculate or bleed every month, think of all those living cells being killed off, my goodness

Being vegan wouldn't even work, as plants and fungi are, in fact, alive. (Incidentally, i you ever want to piss off a PETA member, mentioning this fact often does the trick.)

 

[Whiplash]

Fiona, Cleon, thanks for your comments. Good points. I'm no longer sure where I even fall in the spectrum anymore to be honest.

I am morally against the idea of abortion. But I completely recognize that things would be insanely worse should it be illegal. I'm someone who doesn't like it, but wouldn't seek to change things. I would prefer to think that one day, there will come a time when abortions will be few and far between, by choice.

So I guess as much as I have been brought up pro-life, and consider myself pro-life, perhaps I am pro-choice after all. I wouldn't force anyone to carry a child to term. I just have a little niggle with the whole thing on a moral level. And only when it's a matter of convenience. Perhaps that is religious baggage from my upbringing.

ETA: I changed "force an abortion on anyone" to "force anyone to carry a child to term" while Cleon responded, but it was only because I was saying the wrong thing by mistake, my edit is what I meant to say.

 

[dudalb]

If there was no media coverage, how did you find out? Also, who are you saying has the double-standard?

It is getting a little coverage on in the papers, but ALmost none on the major news networks.
BOth Obama and the News Media seem to be underplaying this so as not to "offend" Moselm sensibilities.
Of course the ability of the Left to have "Selective Outrage" while accusing the right of the same thing is of long standing.

 

[Cleon]

Fiona, Cleon, thanks for your comments. Good points. I'm no longer sure where I even fall in the spectrum anymore to be honest.

I am morally against the idea of abortion. But I completely recognize that things would be insanely worse should it be illegal. I'm someone who doesn't like it, but wouldn't seek to change things. I would prefer to think that one day, there will come a time when abortions will be few and far between, by choice.

So I guess as much as I have been brought up pro-life, and consider myself pro-life, perhaps I am pro-choice after all. I wouldn't force an abortion on anyone. I just have a little niggle with the whole thing on a moral level. And only when it's a matter of convenience. Perhaps that is religious baggage from my upbringing.

And that is where the term "anti-abortion" becomes problematic--because it's perfectly possible to be against abortion, but still be pro-choice. There's nothing wrong with being against abortion "morally," and opting not to have one yourself. (Though I imagine this would be unlikely in your case, no matter what your morals may be.)

Because that's what the right to choose is about; the right to make the decision for yourself, whatever the decision happens to be.

 

[garcia<3]

Being vegan wouldn't even work, as plants and fungi are, in fact, alive. (Incidentally, i you ever want to piss off a PETA member, mentioning this fact often does the trick.)

True, I guess what I meant to say, I'm not sure what they're called but there are people out there who only eat stuff that has fallen off of trees and plants. They must be very skinny.

 

[Whiplash]

(Though I imagine this would be unlikely in your case, no matter what your morals may be.)

Thank God for that (or FSM, or whoever).

I don't envy women and the pain and choices they have to go through.

 

[linusrichard]

Being vegan wouldn't even work, as plants and fungi are, in fact, alive. (Incidentally, i you ever want to piss off a PETA member, mentioning this fact often does the trick.)

Why would this piss off a PETA member?

 

[oldhat]

It is getting a little coverage on in the papers, but ALmost none on the major news networks.
BOth Obama and the News Media seem to be underplaying this so as not to "offend" Moselm sensibilities.
Of course the ability of the Left to have "Selective Outrage" while accusing the right of the same thing is of long standing.

There is no coherent, organized 20 year long political campaign of violence and intimidation against military recruiters, as there is against abortion providers. You're saying "the Left" has a double standard when in fact you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It is getting a little coverage on in the papers, but ALmost none on the major news networks.

So it is getting media coverage. I see.

BOth Obama and the News Media seem to be underplaying this so as not to "offend" Moselm sensibilities.
Of course the ability of the Left to have "Selective Outrage" while accusing the right of the same thing is of long standing.

Instead of a media conspiracy carried out not to offend Muslims, ever think that maybe the media simply thinks the story won't help their ratings? There are quite enough stories of Islamic terrorism on the news already and both liberals and conservatives are "outraged."

 

[Whiplash]

There is no coherent, organized 20 year long political campaign of violence and intimidation against military recruiters, as there is against abortion providers. You're saying "the Left" has a double standard when in fact you're comparing apples to oranges.

You're right, there is no coherent, organized 20 year long political campaign of violence and intimidation against military recruiters.

There is however a coherent, organized 30+ year long political campaign of violence and intimidation against Isreal (to a greater degree) and the west (to a lesser degree) by Muslim extremists.

I think this killing falls rather more into the latter category, and is newsworthy in this current climate.

Instead of a media conspiracy carried out not to offend Muslims, ever think that maybe the media simply thinks the story won't help their ratings?

Goodness, I'm sure there are many things that are considered when determining "what is news" but I sincerely hope that "how will it help our ratings" is not even on the list. Naive perhaps, but that's what journalism should be about.

There are quite enough stories of Islamic terrorism on the news already and both liberals and conservatives are "outraged."

Isn't this somewhat unique? I have to confess I hadn't heard about it yet either. A mulsim extremist kills an American soldier (recruiter, whatever) here in America, and you don't think that's highly newsworthy? Is this not the first time someone was killed by one of these nutjobs, on our soil, since 9-11???

ETA: I don't know how much coverage this got, I'm just questioning the above statements. I hadn't heard about it, but I am not plugged in on the news 24/7.

 

[MattusMaximus]

In the meantime one of the US soldiers shot outside of Washington by a Islamic nutjob. died. No media coverage, no statement from Obama.
Nice double standard.

Uh, I saw plenty of media coverage on this yesterday. In fact, it was front page news on a lot of MSM websites.



I've looked all over the place, and I found this article about it. In contrast, everywhere I look I haven't found one article on the murder of Dr. George Tiller. News cycle, I suppose.