Presumably the same thing you're doing here...discussing the murder of a doctor that was apparently an act of what should be called domestic terrorism. Then the discussion turned into blaming all Christians everywhere for the acts of a few, which you seem to be agreeing with. If that's your position--that this was a simple murder by Christians as a whole, then I'm disagreeing with you, it would appear.
"Abortion Doctor" Murdered
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Presumably the same thing you're doing here...discussing the murder of a doctor that was apparently an act of what should be called domestic terrorism. Then the discussion turned into blaming all Christians everywhere for the acts of a few, which you seem to be agreeing with. If that's your position--that this was a simple murder by Christians as a whole, then I'm disagreeing with you, it would appear.
Well, actually, you did set it - you certainly asked it rhetorically:
And I don't see how you get from "Katrina was God's judgment" to "Go out and kill an abortionist (or a non-Christian, or whatever)."
I'm still waiting to see these alleged incitements to murder from the Christian pulpit. Let me know when you (or anyone) find any outside of Fred Phelps's merry band of lunatics.
tsig
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You want to ignore everything that led to the shooting and just focus on the event.
You cannot in stand in the public square and shout "Kill the abortionist" and then walk away with clean hands when it happens,
tsig
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So Fred Phelps is not a True Christian by your definition?
Funny that you provided my example for me.
And you want to ignore the faith groups that have worked for decades to keep abortion safe and legal. You want to ignore the faith groups that have counter-protested the extremists calling for violence.
I'm not just focusing on the event at all. That would be those who ONLY see the killer (and nuts like him) as the Christian. The doctor himself was. The congregation that witnessed his murder was...and I seriously DOUBT they stood up and applauded. Would you tell THEM it was their fault?
Isn't it obvious that he isn't?
Interesting, but not surprising that this little gem has gone unnoticed or unreplied to. It's a valid point. Nothing infuriated me more in the last 8 years than constant claims of Bush being a murder, and "Bush lied, people died!". It was all rhetoric, and they knew it, and they knew damn well what they were trying to do by saying it. Stir up discontent against the administration (at the very least).
Neither side, nor any relgion, has a monopoly on polarizing, angry rhetoric designed to make people take action.
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Exactly. The scary part, to me, is how many people can see it in the people they disagree with, but cannot see it in themselves. There was a time, many years ago, when I was blinded to my own stupidity...and it took something terrible happening, to someone I loved, to make me see it. I am sure that I fail, at times. But I make a concerted effort to NOT fail, even if it means admitting things about myself that I may not like to admit, and learning and changing when I know I am wrong.
A good and noble attitude I endorse and try to subscribe to myself. I'm sure I have been guilty of doing it as well. And I wish I hadn't. And I wish I could always catch myself when I am doing it. But you make a good point, it's something we should all strive to watch for in ourselves.
SezMe
post-pre-born
No. Please tell me how to differentiate the real Christians from the imposters.
SezMe
post-pre-born
I'll give it a shot but first let me say that it is a biiig stretch so don't expect me to expend any energy defending it.
People died from Katrina. Some Christian preachers have cited that as god's judgement on New Orleans. Therefore, god killed those people. God is all powerful and perfect. We should obey god's law, as evidenced by his examples. So we can, nay should, kill evil people. Tiller was evil. Therefore, go kill him.
JoeyDonuts
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Exactly my point. Christianity isn't even close to organized. There are hundreds of denominations, thousands of small churches who don't even claim a denomination, and people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do not speak for the majority of practicing Christians. They go to church on Sunday to enjoy the fellowship of their fellow believers, and to receive a lesson on the "word of God." (If it seems like I know a lot about this, I grew up being a Christian thanks to my parents. I also grew out of it.) Most of them don't watch the 700 Club, think Robert Tilton is a crook, are absolutely disgusted by Phred Phelps, and are everyday people just like you and me whose experiences and insights have led them to the path of believing in a higher power as viewed through the focus of the Bible and Christian ideology. How does that makes them culpable for the actions of a mentally ill trigger-happy bigot in another part of the country again? And why are they obligated to do anything at all?
SezMe said:
The kinds of preachers spewing that firebrand rhetoric represent an infantesimal minority of Christians in the U.S. If you were to walk into any church on any street corner the Sunday after Katrina, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't find a preacher spitting venom about how we brought this on ourselves. You'd be more likely to find them taking up a collection for the relief effort.
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Well, it's really quite simple when we're discussing Christianity. The teachings of Christ don't include murder or violence. Anyone who claims to believe in Jesus as "Lord and Savior" must, by default, believe what Scriptures say Jesus taught, right? Wouldn't that be fairly logical? Jesus didn't say murder or hurl insults at and act like idiots toward our enemies...just the opposite, actually, which was a pretty radical concept at the time.
So to me it is really rather simple, particularly in Protestant faiths, to tell who the imposters are. Oddly enough, it seems many times that those with no faith have a better understanding of what Christianity teaches than these extremist nutjobs...so it shouldn't be difficult to recognize that they clearly, CLEARLY aren't what they claim to be.
I won't...... because that kind of reasoning (I know you aren't subscribing to it, just speculating) is the same kind that I once saw that proved that good = evil. Here's how it went:
- Good = fine
- Fine = delicate
- Delicate = frail
- Frail = ill
- Ill = evil
Skeptic Ginger
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Are you just discounting the rhetoric of many a pastor's preaching on this subject?
Where are the preachers preaching against the rhetoric that pushes the 'nutjobs' to act? Lot's of Christians are condemning the act. How many of them are condemning the preaching? I would hope someone in this thread finds us some examples of churches condemning using terms like murder for abortion doctors.
BTMO
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Hmmm.. God also took out his wrath on Victoria (Australia) recently.
It seems that local abortion laws were to blame for the fires that killed nearly 200 people in Victoria...
It seems that local abortion laws were to blame for the fires that killed nearly 200 people in Victoria...
(nominated)
This was a wonderful post, Joey. I share your experience having grown up in a Lutheran family, and forced to attend parochial school till grade 8. And we were active church goers, and involved in church functions. This put me in contact with many other Lutheran families.
Over the years I quickly lost all my faith (it wasn't strong to begin with). By my late teens I had given up completely, much to my mother's dismay. I have never gone back.
I mention this because I realize that, to some, having come from that environment may make a person more likely to support them when they are wrong, or turn a blind eye, etc.
Disclaimer aside, my experience has been the same as yours. The vast, vast majority of people I met and got to know were good, honest, hard working family type people. They weren't out preaching in people's faces. They weren't judgemental. The overwhelming theme was love and helping each other. I never once heard anything regarding abortion other than the belief that it was a sin. Nothing about the people who do it. At least nothing more than "they will have to answer to God one day". Never a suggestion that it was anyone else's business but God's to deal with it.
Same with homosexuality. These subjects rarely even came up at all, and if they did, it was in a way that was to feel sorry for these people and hope that God would help them. Not once did I ever hear anyone proclaim anything remotely resembling violence. EVER.
I think that this part of my life is what lead me to have such a strong sense of empathy. Heck I think part of what drew me away from church was that it was so dreadfully dull and boring. All nicey nice and love love love. No fun. Everything I enjoy is "wrong".
Sadly, it's all too common for people to demonize entire groups based on the actions of a few. It's all too easy to rationalize it to one's self when it's regarding an issue on which you feel you have strong moral superiority. But all the same, it's still a fallacy. It's the same thinking that leads to the idea that all blacks are untrustworthy. Or that all Italians are evil, wife beating mobsters. Or that all environmentalists are nutjobs and potential uni-bombers. Or that all militia members are Timothy McVeigh in waiting.
As I said earlier, no one has a monopoly on spewing hatred and lies to stir people up and create problems. No one. I think Cleon said it great as well, which is why I have nominated him also.
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Skeptic Ginger
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I would like to see Christians first and foremost recognize the contribution the religion itself plays in the development of religious extremism.
Lots of things have inherent danger associated with them. Gun makers, for example, don't do enough to address the dangers of their products either. The gun manufacturer absolves themselves of guilt by blaming the user. Some people agree. Some of us feel the product maker is responsible for more than just saying they don't condone misuse of their product. A drug manufacturer, OTOH, is likely to be considered responsible to act to lessen the hazard their products pose along with the benefit.
Religion is another matter in that there are no clear cut 'manufacturers'. So I don't expect all Christians to act to lessen the inherent hazard their religion poses. But I expect at least some of them to recognize their religion poses a hazard to users prone to extremism. If you are involved in a religion such as the Christian and Muslim religions currently, and you are aware there are people who are damaged by those religious messages and beliefs (in this case the damage is to people who are prone to extremism related to those religions), then at least some of those believers should recognize and act to prevent the religious message from resulting in extremist interpretations.
The believers value extremism. They may not value all forms of extremism. But they value the extremist who gives their life to God, yadda yadda. This creates an inherent risk that valued extremism will be negative. If you preach extremism (give your life to the Lord) as many Christians do, you should be taking some action to prevent bad extremism, not simply saying, "gee, not my fault that guy misused my religion."
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Lots of preachers give hell and brimstone sermons on all kinds of sin. If a guy shoots his cheating wife and her boyfriend, are you going to blame the preacher for that, too?
Claim not in evidence. Show me one instance of someone killing an abortionist "because my preacher's sermons pushed me to do it."
So a preacher who honestly believes that abortion is the moral equivalent of murder should rail against it in a Sunday sermon, but add, "But don't get the wrong idea; Jesus doesn't want you to go out and kill anyone"?
Got a news flash for you. The sane people in his congregation knew that already. The insane ones won't care. Again, to the wicked (and the crazy), everything is pretext.