Moderated Legitimate 9/11 Questions

Accounting called.
They noticed the may 16. "attack" were called of, and want to know if we are to keep UA93 on the Anartica base for the operation in 2012 or dismantle it for spare parts?
And what department will be picking up the maintainance bill now?
 
heres a couple of pieces in info that go into them testing the ground for jet fuel.

Flight 93 relatives gathering for service

Monday, September 17, 2001

"Also yesterday, the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection said it would begin taking soil and well water samples today to determine whether contamination occurred from Flight 93's aviation fuel, hydraulic fluids and other hazardous materials following the crash."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010917somerset0917p2.asp

then we have-

Latest Somerset crash site findings may yield added IDs

Wednesday, October 03, 2001

"The soil is being tested for jet fuel, and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater, since three nearby homes are served by wells, Betsy Mallison, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman, said.

So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."

http://www.postgazette.com/headlines/20011003crash1003p3.asp


its pretty interesting that at the wtc site, the explosion was massive and at the crash site of 93, grass wasnt even burned right beside the crater!!

Did you even bother to read previous posts?? Groundwater tables in that part of Pennsylvania happen to be on the order of 75 to 250 feet below the surface. A test of groundwater to ensure its drinkability says nothing about contamination at the surface, it just means that whatever has the potential to be dangerous at the surface has not made it down to the water table yet.



Once again:
  • We know the jet was in the air from the FDR and radar data. We can presume from that it was under its own power, thus meaning it was fueled (I am unaware of any medium bodied passenger gliders in existence, so others can correct me if I'm wrong about that :rolleyes:).
  • We have first responder testimony of fuel smell, and in one case, fuel "puddling".
  • We have witnesses to the smoke plume from the fire, one of whom took pictures (Val McClatchey), another of whom reported what he saw to the controlling ATC tower, Cleveland Center (Yates Gladwell).
  • We have an EPA ordered cleanup.
What will a soil contamination test tell us that we don't already know? Whether a specific patch of ground ended up having fuel splashed on it or not? Tell me, then, if somehow the samples come up as showing little to no contamination, what does that tell us? What does that say about the first responder testimony? What does that say about the images, or the eyewitnesses to the plume? Did they all lie? Or could there be a degree of error in the test, say that it's susceptible to selection of samples? Say soil was tested in an area where fuel did indeed not land, someplace other than where the Somerset County Coroner reported fuel puddling? Would that soil show signs of contamination?

Here's the point: It doesn't matter what soil tests will show. It does not matter. The fate of Flight 93 has already been determined by the ATC radar, FDR, CVR, cell and airphone calls, and airline testimony that they lost a plane. It has been further confirmed by the coroner's identification of remains as well as the recovery of wreckage. The fact that it crashed has been determined from 1. The FDR and CVR data, 2. Witness testimony, and 3. Debris being present. What do soil sample tests tell us that we don't already know?? It might tell us the environmental impact a jet crash has, but it won't draw into question all the other multiple converging lines of evidence. It can't. They're already established and confirmed.

My apologies, T.A.M., for adding a stipulation to your thread, but in the face of others pursuing inane lines of inquiry, I believe it is necessary: A legitimate question is one where the answer would actually shed light on a previously unknown aspect of the event. Unless you think there's merit in the study of environmental impacts, I ask you Red, and you Senemut, since you seem to be echoing Red's stance, what is to be discovered from such testing? Red mentioned earlier that if the contamination is not there, the fuel is not there, but you have to ignore the fact that the fuel's presence has already been established by the jet's presence, as well as the witness testimony to the smoke from the crash in order to have that stance. You also ignore the fact that such testing can be prone to sample selectivity (what if patches of ground are selected that were not covered in fuel? What then? Does a negative test from that really demonstrate that fuel was not present at all, or was simply not present on that area at the crash site?), as well as natural effects (it did rain a small amount on September 14th in that area, so if no tests were conducted prior to that, what effect would the rain have had?). You allow for none of that. You merely ask for something to be handed to you that doesn't tell you anything more about the crash than what you already can find out with a little research. To what end is that line of questioning supposed to lead to? More irrelevant detail?

Again, the question of soil pollution from the jet's crash is most certainly not a legitimate question in the context of T.A.M.'s OP. It is merely one meant to pick at nits and distract from the overall weight of the evidence placing United 93 at Shanksville on that date. Unless the line of inquiry is aimed at determining environmental safety - and if it is, a legitimate response would be to ask why it was brought up in this thread - then such a question serves zero purpose. It is irrelevant to determining what happened to FL93.
 
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Did you even bother to read previous posts?? Groundwater tables in that part of Pennsylvania happen to be on the order of 75 to 250 feet below the surface. A test of groundwater to ensure its drinkability says nothing about contamination at the surface, it just means that whatever has the potential to be dangerous at the surface has not made it down to the water table yet.



Once again:
  • We know the jet was in the air from the FDR and radar data. We can presume from that it was under its own power, thus meaning it was fueled (I am unaware of any medium bodied passenger gliders in existence, so others can correct me if I'm wrong about that :rolleyes:).
  • We have first responder testimony of fuel smell, and in one case, fuel "puddling".
  • We have witnesses to the smoke plume from the fire, one of whom took pictures (Val McClatchey), another of whom reported what he saw to the controlling ATC tower, Cleveland Center (Yates Gladwell).
  • We have an EPA ordered cleanup.
What will a soil contamination test tell us that we don't already know? Whether a specific patch of ground ended up having fuel splashed on it or not? Tell me, then, if somehow the samples come up as showing little to no contamination, what does that tell us? What does that say about the first responder testimony? What does that say about the images, or the eyewitnesses to the plume? Did they all lie? Or could there be a degree of error in the test, say that it's susceptible to selection of samples? Say soil was tested in an area where fuel did indeed not land, someplace other than where the Somerset County Coroner reported fuel puddling? Would that soil show signs of contamination?

Here's the point: It doesn't matter what soil tests will show. It does not matter. The fate of Flight 93 has already been determined by the ATC radar, FDR, CVR, cell and airphone calls, and airline testimony that they lost a plane. It has been further confirmed by the coroner's identification of remains as well as the recovery of wreckage. The fact that it crashed has been determined from 1. The FDR and CVR data, 2. Witness testimony, and 3. Debris being present. What do soil sample tests tell us that we don't already know?? It might tell us the environmental impact a jet crash has, but it won't draw into question all the other multiple converging lines of evidence. It can't. They're already established and confirmed.

My apologies, T.A.M., for adding a stipulation to your thread, but in the face of others pursuing inane lines of inquiry, I believe it is necessary: A legitimate question is one where the answer would actually shed light on a previously unknown aspect of the event. Unless you think there's merit in the study of environmental impacts, I ask you Red, and you Senemut, since you seem to be echoing Red's stance, what is to be discovered from such testing? Red mentioned earlier that if the contamination is not there, the fuel is not there, but you have to ignore the fact that the fuel's presence has already been established by the jet's presence, as well as the witness testimony to the smoke from the crash in order to have that stance. You also ignore the fact that such testing can be prone to sample selectivity (what if patches of ground are selected that were not covered in fuel? What then? Does a negative test from that really demonstrate that fuel was not present at all, or was simply not present on that area at the crash site?), as well as natural effects (it did rain a small amount on September 14th in that area, so if no tests were conducted prior to that, what effect would the rain have had?). You allow for none of that. You merely ask for something to be handed to you that doesn't tell you anything more about the crash than what you already can find out with a little research. To what end is that line of questioning supposed to lead to? More irrelevant detail?

Again, the question of soil pollution from the jet's crash is most certainly not a legitimate question in the context of T.A.M.'s OP. It is merely one meant to pick at nits and distract from the overall weight of the evidence placing United 93 at Shanksville on that date. Unless the line of inquiry is aimed at determining environmental safety - and if it is, a legitimate response would be to ask why it was brought up in this thread - then such a question serves zero purpose. It is irrelevant to determining what happened to FL93.

and how do u know that eyewittness saw a pool of jet fuel?? haha....man, that could have been water. there was that little fire truck out there after it happened.


and maybe u missed the point where she states that soil samples were taken too:

"The soil is being tested for jet fuel, and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater, since three nearby homes are served by wells, Betsy Mallison, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman, said.

So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."

http://www.postgazette.com/headlines...rash1003p3.asp


the aircraft that hit the wtc had a massive fireball. heres the question for the thread, out of 37,500 lbs of fuel that was supposedly comsumed in that fireball (crash of flight 93), why did the grass not burn right next to the crater?

 
and how do u know that eyewittness saw a pool of jet fuel?? haha....man, that could have been water. there was that little fire truck out there after it happened.


and maybe u missed the point where she states that soil samples were taken too:

"The soil is being tested for jet fuel, and at least three test wells have been sunk to monitor groundwater, since three nearby homes are served by wells, Betsy Mallison, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman, said.

So far, no contamination has been discovered, she said."

http://www.postgazette.com/headlines...rash1003p3.asp


the aircraft that hit the wtc had a massive fireball. heres the question for the thread, out of 37,500 lbs of fuel that was supposedly comsumed in that fireball (crash of flight 93), why did the grass not burn right next to the crater?

[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_285444a17032266189.jpg[/URL]

This is a perfect example of ignoring the weight of multiple converging lines of evidence in order to highlight one single issue and separate it from its context. As well as ignoring previous posts.

Who the hell knows why the grass did not burn right next to the crater? I don't. I also don't know why tornados hit some houses and miss others, nor do I know why the car that managed to run a red light in front of me last week missed me and the other God knows how many cars that were there. What I do know about FL 93 is that the radar data, FDR, cell and airphone calls place the jet there. So what happened to the fuel? Maybe it burnt up producing the smoke plume that was photographed? Who knows? Who cares? Accounting for the fuel tells us nothing about FL93 that we don't already know.

We've spent too much time on this topic. It is a non-issue. FL93's presence is established from multiple lines of evidence. I suggest that you work towards finding a legitimate question to ask.
 
This is a perfect example of ignoring the weight of multiple converging lines of evidence in order to highlight one single issue and separate it from its context. As well as ignoring previous posts.

Who the hell knows why the grass did not burn right next to the crater? I don't. I also don't know why tornados hit some houses and miss others, nor do I know why the car that managed to run a red light in front of me last week missed me and the other God knows how many cars that were there. What I do know about FL 93 is that the radar data, FDR, cell and airphone calls place the jet there. So what happened to the fuel? Maybe it burnt up producing the smoke plume that was photographed? Who knows? Who cares? Accounting for the fuel tells us nothing about FL93 that we don't already know.

We've spent too much time on this topic. It is a non-issue. FL93's presence is established from multiple lines of evidence. I suggest that you work towards finding a legitimate question to ask.


when u state "This is a perfect example of ignoring the weight of multiple converging lines of evidence" , have u ever wondered that those lines could have been manipulated? this goes into a whole new direction so i might try and start a new thread later on. kinda busy now.

those lines of evidence could have been manipulated by ptech:
"Now I understand Cynthia’s questions. Who, who’s really behind PTECH is the questions. I asked that of many intelligence people who came to my aid as I was being blacklisted and I was told, “Indira, it is a CIA clandestine op on the level of Iran-Contra.”


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...evel+of+Iran-Contra"&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
 
So the entire body of evidence that confirms the official version of events has been "manipulated" while it's something as trivial and meaningless as a soil analysis that proves it was an inside job?

The English language is woefully inadequate to accurately describe how crazy and stupid that is.
 
the aircraft that hit the wtc had a massive fireball. heres the question for the thread, out of 37,500 lbs of fuel that was supposedly comsumed in that fireball (crash of flight 93), why did the grass not burn right next to the crater?

They will never address this. They have no answer. They will avoid even considering for a second that the only reason could be that the fuel was never there in the first place.
 
Why do I need to address it?

The plane crashed. People died. You are worried that some grass didn't get scorched. Glad to see your priorities are in order.
 
They will never address this. They have no answer. They will avoid even considering for a second that the only reason could be that the fuel was never there in the first place.


I've answered it many times. The fuel atomized on impact, the forward momentum and wind caused the fireball to propagate in the direction it did; toward the tree line.
 
They will never address this. They have no answer. They will avoid even considering for a second that the only reason could be that the fuel was never there in the first place.

I'm guessing because the fuel ended burning in the crater or in the atmosphere but I don't really care.

I find it hilarious that you accuse other people of avoiding questions. You are the most intellectually dishonest person that I have ever come across. You avoid inconvenient questions like they are the plague. For example, I predict that you will won't answer these questions:

What happened to U93?

Why were remains from every passenger recovered from Shanskville?

How did plane debris get there?

How did the FDR and CVR from UA93 get there?

Why do multiple witnesses report seeing a plane crash there?

How come radar data has UA93 tracked to the crash site?
 
They will never address this. They have no answer. They will avoid even considering for a second that the only reason could be that the fuel was never there in the first place.

I have not noticed you comming up with any other explanation for where the plane and passengers went.
Anarctica?
 
He has a point. Look at all this burned grass around the United 585 crater!
Oh wait, there isn't any! Nevermind.!

But look at all the evidence of fire around the crater of Allegheny 853! Oops, none there either. Not much debris in either, clearly inside jorbs!
 
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when u state "This is a perfect example of ignoring the weight of multiple converging lines of evidence" , have u ever wondered that those lines could have been manipulated? this goes into a whole new direction so i might try and start a new thread later on. kinda busy now.

those lines of evidence could have been manipulated by ptech:
"Now I understand Cynthia’s questions. Who, who’s really behind PTECH is the questions. I asked that of many intelligence people who came to my aid as I was being blacklisted and I was told, “Indira, it is a CIA clandestine op on the level of Iran-Contra.”


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...evel+of+Iran-Contra"&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

After asking for one more nugget in the plethora of evidence that already exists, you then turn around and offer a blank assertion with the thinnest of associations with 9/11?

This is the last I'll address you, since your objections are devoid of substance and comprised of cliché. But if you want to claim that the lines of evidence were manipulated, stop sometime and count just how many people need to be "in on it" in order for that to be so. At minimum:
  • Cleveland Center ATC
  • Yates Gladwell, VF corporation pilot who reported the crash site to Cleveland Center.
  • Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company
  • Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company
  • Central City Fire Department
  • Berlin Fire Department
  • Friedens Volunteer Fire Department
  • Listie Volunteer Fire Company
  • Somerset Volunteer Fire Department
  • Somerset Ambulance Association
  • Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department
  • Hooversville Rescue Squad
  • United Airlines
  • GTE's airphone operators on duty that day
  • Bob Blair, Stoystown Pa., driver Jim Barron Trucking of Somerset, eyewitness to FL93 flying low
  • Eric Peterson, eyewitness, one of the first civillians at the crash site
  • Joe Wilt, Shanksville resident who reported a fire at the crash site
  • John Walsh, area resident, another civillian among the first at the crash site
  • Charles Sturtz, area reasident, reported 200 foot tall fireball, another civillian among the first at the crash site
  • Rob Kimmel, area resident, eyewitness to FL93 flying low
... aw, to heck with it. I'm tired of looking up first responders and other people who have testified to either watching UA93 crash or having been at the crash site immediately after impact. Go look those up yourself. My point is that if you really want to allege a conspiracy to manipulate evidence, stop and think for a bit just how many people that would take. It would be, at minimum, the number of people who were directly involved with the event itself (Cleveland Center ATC, the GTE Airphone operators), plus the number of people who eyewitnessed the jet, plus the number of people who responded to the tragedy by working the crash site. At minimum. Note that I haven't even invoked you conspiracy peddlers normal roster of suspects yet (FBI, CIA, US Military, White House, etc.). If you want to allege a conspiracy built on thousands of people, feel free. Just be prepared to endure the ridicule that comes with such a ludicrous proposal.
 
ElMondo, they're already used to ridicule. They seem to NEED it for some reason.
 
They will never address this. They have no answer. They will avoid even considering for a second that the only reason could be that the fuel was never there in the first place.

This is a demonstrably untrue claim. You have no evidence that the fuel was never there. And unless you want to claim that the jet somehow got there with no fuel, we can place the jet there and by extension place jet fuel there.

This is the end of an empty, inane line of inquiry. Return to considering legitimate questions, please. The issue of soil contamination is not legitimate, not in the context of the fate of FL93.
 
They will never address this. They have no answer. They will avoid even considering for a second that the only reason could be that the fuel was never there in the first place.

SO are you really saying that the people who FAKED the crash of flight UA93 were too ****ing dumb to remember to spread out jet fuel at the site?

really? honestly? is that what you are implying?

TAM:)
 
Maybe the guy tasked with spreading the jet fuel around along with the others spreading body and plane parts thought he was supposed to bring donuts. Hey. Mistakes happen. At least they had donuts.
 
If there's no contamination of the soil, there was no fuel.

This is an assumption on your part. Soil samples with no contamination would show only that fuel did not contaminate the soil.

This would most certainly be of interest to folks at the EPA, local Water Utilities, the property owner as well as local wildlife concerns. I'm sure in aggregate with other data, the FAA, Airplane designers, accident investigators and first responders would also have questions and concerns about the behavior of the fuel after the crash. If this is the thrust of your question, then it is a legitimate one; albiet not for the 9/11 CT forum. Take it to the Science forum.

If on the other hand you believe that such a report it would falsify the crash, then unless you can demonstrate that the absence of contamination is sufficient to falsify all the other physical, forensic and circumstantial evidence, NO IT IS NOT A LEGITIMATE QUESTION. It's simply Red Ibis being Red Ibis and finding some minutiae where the folks at JREF don't have the answer for him instantly.
 

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