Torture: getting Cheney to admit to the Tate murders...

headscratcher4

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headscratcher4
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Ok, maybe not. And, I'm no huge fan of Jesse Ventura, but I thought this exchange with Larry King (of all people) was interesting...

"Jesse Ventura: I would prosecute every person who was involved in that torture. I would prosecute the people that did it, I would prosecute the people that ordered it, because torture is against the law."

Larry King: You were a Navy S.E.A.L.

Jesse Ventura: Yes, and I was waterboarded [in training] so I know... It is torture...I'll put it to you this way: You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders."

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/12/ventura-cheney-torture/
 
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headscratcher4 said:
Ok, maybe not. And, I'm no huge fan of Jesse Ventura, but I thought this exchange with Larry King (of all people) was interesting...

"Jesse Ventura: I would prosecute every person who was involved in that torture. I would prosecute the people that did it, I would prosecute the people that ordered it, because torture is against the law."

Larry King: You were a Navy S.E.A.L.

Jesse Ventura: Yes, and I was waterboarded [in training] so I know... It is torture...I'll put it to you this way: You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders."
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1) Ventura was in the UDT's not SEAL's.
2) Since there are four people currently serving life sentences for these murders, why would Cheney confess to this after an hour of being waterboarded. Why not confess to it immediately? If getting confessions to obvious lies were the intent of the CIA interrogators, Ventura might actually have a point.
3) Ventura definitely is an example of how waterboarding may be responsible for inducing brain damage.
 
there is plenty of garbage to debunk. I won't be greedy:
Cicero said:
1) Ventura was in the UDT's not SEAL's.
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From September 11, 1969 to September 10, 1975, during the Vietnam era, he served in the United States Navy. While active duty, from January 5, 1970 to December 10, 1973, Ventura was part of Underwater Demolition Team 12. According to the United States Naval Special Warfare Command policy, Ventura is entitled to use the title "SEAL", due to both his service in the UDT and SEAL teams, and his successful graduation from UDT-R (now BUD/S) training. He was awarded the National Defense Service Medal and the Vietnam Service Medal but was not in combat to qualify for the Combat Action Ribbon. In his autobiography, Ventura described SEAL training as the toughest experience of his life. "It's worse than anything you can imagine," he wrote, "You have to want it bad, very bad." Ventura always mentioned how much he respected his SEAL instructor Master Chief Petty Officer Terry "Mother" Moy. He asked Moy to stand by his side when he was sworn in as governor. He ended his inaugural address with the SEAL war cry "HOOYAH!" The website NavySEALS.com contains his bio, and he is considered one of the SEALs' most famous alumni.
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(source)
 
I'll be happy to cover the other two points.

Cicero said:
2) Since there are four people currently serving life sentences for these murders, why would Cheney confess to this after an hour of being waterboarded. Why not confess to it immediately? If getting confessions to obvious lies were the intent of the CIA interrogators, Ventura might actually have a point.
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The point being that waterboarding is such a horrendous form of torture, a person is likely to admit to anything just to get it to stop. Therefore, it is not an effective means of extracting truthful information.



Cicero said:
3) Ventura definitely is an example of how waterboarding may be responsible for inducing brain damage.
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Ad hominum.
 
My apologies. I guess I didn't grasp that torture only produces completely trustworthy information. It sort of puts the whole Gulag Achapelago and the Inquesition into a new light...bunch of guilty whiners.
 
NobbyNobbs said:
The point being that waterboarding is such a horrendous form of torture, a person is likely to admit to anything just to get it to stop. Therefore, it is not an effective means of extracting truthful information.
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I'd say it's not an effective means of extracting a sincere and useful confession; see also the use of torture in preparing prisoners for their roles in Soviet show trials.

On the other hand, as a means for extracting accurate information that can be subsequently confirmed through other means, such that the only way to stop the torture is to make testable claims that are true when tested, I can see waterboarding--if it's truly as horrendous as they say--being extremely effective.

Especially when combined with other protocols that cause psychological stress, impair good judgement, and reduce inhibitions.

I would probably never consider using torture to convict a suspect of kidnapping and murder in a court of law. But I would probably consider using torture to find out from a known and proven murderer where his current victim was imprisoned, dying a slow death unless that location is revealed.
 
tomwaits said:
You removed the "citation needed" tag. It is unclear whether he can or can't be referred to as a "SEAL".
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I remove all of Wikipedia's citations (or try to) because it really screws with readability.

Anyway, as the article says, the Navy SEALs claim him as one of their famous members.
 
headscratcher4 said:
Jesse Ventura: Yes, and I was waterboarded [in training] so I know... It is torture...
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Interesting. So the US military tortures its own soldiers, and Ventura doesn't object, but torture KSM and he's upset? Somebody's got their priorities wrong.
 
Ya. Cause there's no contextual difference between those situations at all.

What a hypocrite Ventura is.
 
Upchurch said:
Strawman Fail
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Boy it's a good thing I didn't mention that Jesse's a 9-11 Truther kook, I would have gotten another penalty for ad hominem in your book, I suppose.

I suppose I could ask you to explain how my point was a strawman. But it's simpler to put you on ignore, which I'm delighted to do now that you're no longer a mod or admin. Have a nice life!
 
Brainster said:
I suppose I could ask you to explain how my point was a strawman. But it's simpler to put you on ignore, which I'm delighted to do now that you're no longer a mod or admin. Have a nice life!
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Assuming you are intellectually honest enough to have your claims questioned without running away (or someone you haven't put on ignore yet quotes me), there is a fundamental difference between training US soldiers and torturing a POW. That difference is one of choice.

Soldiers volunteer to go into the army. When they go through this portion of their training (which they volunteered for) they can, presumably, stop the waterboarding at any time. KSM does not have that luxury.
 
Upchurch said:
I remove all of Wikipedia's citations (or try to) because it really screws with readability.

Anyway, as the article says, the Navy SEALs claim him as one of their famous members.
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All it says about www.navyseals.com at "Official UDT-SEAL Museum" is to "visit it for an extensive archive on Special Operations related article and stories."

And when you get there it states:

***.."The views expressed here are solely those of the owners, and members, of NavySEALs.com"..***

So by their own admission, there is nothing "official" about the info on the website.


"Official UDT-SEAL Museum" doesn't say anything about Ventura one way or the other.

On the "OFFICIAL" U.S. Navy SEAL Website,

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/seal/

There is no mention of James George Janos (aka Jesse Ventura) here.
 
headscratcher4 said:
My apologies. I guess I didn't grasp that torture only produces completely trustworthy information. It sort of puts the whole Gulag Achapelago and the Inquesition into a new light...bunch of guilty whiners.
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What you failed to grasp is that waterboarding, as implemented by the CIA interrogators at GITMO on 3 detainees, did produce "trustworthy" and verifiable information. Or do you doubt what President Obama said about it? Any comparison to the Inquisition or Solzhenitsyn's book can only be described as utter hysteria.
 
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Upchurch said:
Fair enough. However, it does mention BUD/S training, which is the modern version of what Ventura took.
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Ventura's DD 214 file NEC classification states he was unequivocally not in a SEAL Team and he was not a SEAL. It says that he did SEAL training (BUD/S) in June, 1970. The 1983 merging of UDT's and SEAL's doesn't change the fact that Ventura was not a SEAL back during the Vietnam War era.

His Pentagon 201 file has his MOS as UDT (frogmen) "5321s."
SEALs are "5326s." Ventura Spent his entire time in UDT Team 12. He never had a SEAL NEC.
 
Upchurch said:
What's your source and does it say anything about him going through waterboarding as part of his training? In the end, it is that experience that he is relating.
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Come on. Ventura has zero credibility. While a type of waterboarding was/is used in BUD/S, his account of his waterboarding must be taken with a grain of salt since he has maintained that he was in combat in Vietnam, and that he was exposed to Agent Orange, and when asked point blank if he killed anyone while a "SEAL," his answer is "That's something any military man keeps to himself" or "You don't ask a question like that - it's inappropriate." When it comes to waterboarding Ventura is "Talky Tina," when it comes to his true service record Jesse isn't so forthcoming.

Do we need get into his 9/11 woo?


James George Janos in all his earned glory:

http://cursor.org/venturawatch/foia_docs.htm

http://cursor.org/venturawatch/enlin_per_record.htm

James George Janos bio:

http://www.s9.com/Biography/Ventura-Jesse
 
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As far as I can see, the folks supporting Ventura here are only doing it because he said something they agree with. Any port in a storm, I suppose. What exactly does Ventura bring to the debate? The experience of being waterboarded (presumably once) in the 1970s.

I do have to wonder though why they do this in the SERE training; apparently it is so awful that even though you know you're not going to die you'll tell everything you know. So what is the point of doing it to our soldiers?

ETA: Some more pearls of wisdom from The Body:



Oh, horrors, am I poisoning the well?
 
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