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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Niggle said:
That means that all your bleating about the value of Lee Stroebel's book is empty hot air. You wouldn't know a good scientific explanation if it bit you. You don't have the background to evaluate a scientific claim as true or false. And since you never cite any specific sources for your claims, we can't evaluate them, either. So either put up or shut up.
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Quoted for truth.
 
Lothian said:
Does anyone know why he has stopped using slave owners as moral examples? It is almost as if he is embarrassed that the bible promotes slave owning.
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I'm not embarrassed to say that Thomas Jefferson claimed that the teachings of Christ were the most moral and sublime the world has ever known and I'm not embarrassed to say that George Washington prayed twice a day and wrote around 50 letters in which he requested chaplains for the army during the revolutionary war.

And with regard to slavery in the Bible I've already responded to that issue in posts:

2752, 2705, 2696, 2490, 2501, 2505, 2509, 2513, 2422, 1947, 1889, 1878, 1793, 1775, 1811, 1802, 1795, and 1100.
 
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DOC said:
No, but it is some evidence if it is true, just like the many people I've seen on Christian TV who have claimed Jesus got them off drugs is evidence.
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No, it isn't. It's not evidence of that at all. It's evidence that beliefs can be powerful motivators, regardless what the belief is in. It's the whole reason why Voodoo/Hoodoo works for some people.

DOC said:
I have yet to see anyone on TV claim Narconon got them off drugs.
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well, here you go.
http://www.drug-rehabilitation.info/narconon-testimonials.htm

There's some testemonials for ya!

DOC said:
Appeal And Jesus has been around for 2000 years unlike Narconon. Until I hear testimony from many people (and not just a lot of scientology figures) then from my experience Christianity has the better track record.
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DOC said:
Also, FYI I once had a thread in the religious section entitled "Has the power of atheism ever gotten anyone off drugs".
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And it was explained before that that is a silly statement. Atheism is no more likely to help someone than farting into a fishbowl.

Now, the real question is is there examples of secular methods of drug rehab that have been effective.. the answer would be yes. http://alcoholism.about.com/od/non/a/secular.htm
 
kurious_kathy said:
Sorry Hokulele I have chosen to follow Christ and his teachings alone now.
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So, no cookbooks for you ? It's the bibble and nothing but the bibble ?

Darwinism is anti-God so no way!
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Well, colour me unsurprised that you don't understand evolution. Since when is pro-fact anti-god ?

I want them to get Darwinism out of the public schools since it is already well documented to be false.
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By whom ? Honestly, sometimes I'd like loonies like you to actually demonstrate what you claim. Just because you visited creationist sites that claimed things that you liked doesn't mean that evolution doesn't happen. Hell, you can see it happening every day, so it takes a special kind of delusion to ignore that.
 
DOC said:
I'm not embarrassed to say that Thomas Jefferson claimed that the teachings of Christ were the most moral and sublime the world has ever known and I'm not embarrassed to say that George Washington prayed twice a day and wrote around 50 letters in which he requested chaplains for the army during the revolutionary war.
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Could it be that's simply because you're not embarrassed to lie for your messiah?
 
DOC said:
I'm not embarrassed to say that Thomas Jefferson claimed that the teachings of Christ were the most moral and sublime the world has ever known
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And by doing so, you are being intentionally dishonest, as you know full well that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

And with regard to slavery in the Bible I've already responded to that issue in posts:
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And your response has portrayed Jesus as more of an opportunist than someone whose teachings "were the most moral and sublime the world has ever known."

If I take your statements about Jesus and slavery at face value, then I have to say that I am completely unable to regard someone's teachings as "the most moral and sublime the world has ever known" if he was too concerned with political realities to condemn slavery.

John Brown gave his life trying to free the slaves. Going by what you've said on the subject, I have to regard him as being more moral than Jesus.

And the irony is, Brown was a Christian.
 
DOC said:
<Sphnip>

And with regard to slavery in the Bible I've already responded to that issue in posts:

2752, 2705, 2696, 2490, 2501, 2505, 2509, 2513, 2422, 1947, 1889, 1878, 1793, 1775, 1811, 1802, 1795, and 1100.
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Did any of those posts reveal any evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth? The links to your posts are missing, so it was difficult to check.



Lothian said:
Do you think someone who kept slaves is the best person to judge what is morally right?
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Only if the slaves were Hittites. We do need to draw a line somewhere.


Dave,

POTUALL
 
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DOC said:
So you're implying that 11 of 12 apostles were then willing to travel all over the Roman Empire preaching Christ, get tortured, and die, for something they knew was a lie.
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Why would people do this? What is a good explanation?
 
DOC said:
And with regard to slavery in the Bible I've already responded to that issue in posts:

2752, 2705, 2696, 2490, 2501, 2505, 2509, 2513, 2422, 1947, 1889, 1878, 1793, 1775, 1811, 1802, 1795, and 1100.
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Yup and you still failed to explain why Jesus, being the most moral teacher, failed to say that slavery was bad. I mean, he went out of his way to explain how we are like slaves to the lord and explained that it is just to whip a slave for breaking a rule that he didn't know about, but he never said that slavery is immoral.

Crazy that, eh? The most moral teacher ever not thinking slavery was bad enough to speak out against it.
I guess he was too busy with more important moral dilemmas like working on the sabbath.
 
Mr Clingford said:
Why would people do this? What is a good explanation?
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Don't be misled by the strawman DOC is using as a waltz partner. As Ichneumonwasp recently pointed out, no one is suggesting that the various people writing/being written about in the New Testament were deliberately lying. However, there is good evidence that parts of it was repeated hearsay that was garbled in transmission or just flat out wrong.

From my experience, it is only the biblical literalists who see this as an accusation of lying.
 
Hokulele said:
Don't be misled by the strawman DOC is using as a waltz partner. As Ichneumonwasp recently pointed out, no one is suggesting that the various people writing/being written about in the New Testament were deliberately lying. However, there is good evidence that parts of it was repeated hearsay that was garbled in transmission or just flat out wrong.

From my experience, it is only the biblical literalists who see this as an accusation of lying.
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I see this more as 'If the disciples knew that Jesus did not rise again, then surely he was only a prophet, so why would they proclaim and die for something they knew wasn't true?' Something like that.
 
Lothian said:
Do you think someone who kept slaves is the best person to judge what is morally right?
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I don't see any whites or blacks asking to chisel Washington's and Jefferson's face off Mt. Rushmore. And according to this site Jefferson hated slavery:

http://www.thoughtsonobjectivism.com/certainty_site/12 Thomas Jeffersons Dilemma.htm

Also I remember one post from my "Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity" thread I had 1 1/2 years ago that Jefferson was in debt, it was difficult to release the slaves, without paying off his creditors (who would of had claim to the slaves) first.

Once again people are trying to transplant our modern concept of slavery into a culture that allowed Washington to inherit many slaves at age 10 and Jefferson to inherit many slaves at age 14.

I've already talked very much about slavery in the Jefferson thread and in this thread so I'm not going to spend much time repeating myself.
 
Mr Clingford said:
Ah! I'm just trying to see if there is a good counter argument to it.
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Oh, I see. Hmm, I guess if we are just playing with hypotheticals, I could see a counter argument being as follows:

The apostles knew Jesus was just your average run-of-the-mill apocalyptic prophet, but the good following/money was in convincing people he really was the Messiah. As such, they conspired to agree that that is what he was. When arrested and martyred, of course they cracked under pressure, but no one believed those filthy Roman occupiers (of course the Romans would lie and claim the apostles admitted it was a fake!), and the remaining apostle(s) had to keep to the original cover story to keep the mission growing.

Granted, it may not be a good counter argument...
 
DOC said:
So you're implying that 11 of 12 apostles were then willing to travel all over the Roman Empire preaching Christ, get tortured, and die, for something they knew was a lie.
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What if they were preaching in good faith what they believed to have happened, but they were just lying about their having participated in/witnessed the events in question?
 
The Christian martyrs believed in good faith. But it does not mean they were right. They were not, after all, witnesses to the event (cf point 2).

As far as the apostles themselves are concerned, we don't know they even existed. The only references we have are from the acts (apologetic literature).
In other word: we have to take the word of Christian propaganda. Hardly fool proof, especially as they are several difficulties coming with accepting the acts, for example the contradiction between their account of Paul's conversion and trip to Damascus and the one from Paul's own correspondence (more knowledgeable people might give you more examples).

Recanting would not have helped them. Once condemned, they were executed, regardless if they abandoned Christianity or not.
Their executers did bother recording if they did recant anyway. Once again, we only have the accounts from Christian apologetics. Maybe they lied. Maybe they only reported the martyrdoms that were heroic enough and left out all the accounts of the apostles that cried and abandoned their creed.
 
Niggle said:
No, mothers don't need college degrees. But without college degrees, there would be no doctors, either. No engineers to design and build your cars, computers, and everything else you use in your kitchen on a daily basis. No architects to design and build homes that won't collapse on you when too much snow gets on the roof. You may shun education for yourself. You have no right to belittle people who choose to get an education. We all have important roles to play in society, mothers and engineers and electricians. And especially teachers.
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Hey Niggle, I welcome you as a new voice of rationality. Without science, my 89 year old mother wouldn't have lived pass age 50 (multiple bypasses, artificial heart value, and a pacemaker). I am truely thankful that she's still with me but it's not through the power of jebbus, it's through the power of science and research.
 
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