Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[wollery]

Yes I believe you and many others have been too influenced by this book and now you are promoting it which makes you even more accountable to God. When I said I would read this book and give you my opinion I did not intend for you to start a thread. Why did you feel it was even necessary to do that? I could have just PM'd you my opinion but you had to make a big to do of it, why?? Did you really think I would be influenced to turn to the dark side by reading this?

You made several posts in this thread that seemed quite enthusiastic about it.

You said that you were downloading the book, and would listen and offer your thoughts.

You had no problem with it until people actually pressed you to demonstrate that you had read (listened to) the book. Now you're complaining that you never wanted this thread. We can only assume that this is because you saw it as an opportunity to preach, but it didn't turn out that way.

As a final word, may I just say that your faith must be very weak. If you believe that reading a book can cause you to question your god then you can't have much faith in him to start with. If your religion is that good, your holy book that true, and your faith that strong, then how could any criticism of it cause you to falter?

 

[Tricky]

I have one last comment and then this thread can either drop into obscurity or turn into a general discussion on these topics.




So you are advising censorship? Viewpoints that you do not agree with are to be avoided rather than honestly examined? I find this stance completely abhorrent and impossible to reconcile with your earlier pleas for open-mindedness. One of the firm foundations of my faith (to be ironic for a moment) is that it must be open to challenge. If it cannot withstand such a challenge, I should rethink what it is I think I know. I would never, ever tell anyone they shouldn't read/listen/watch any piece of material, no matter how much I disagree with it.

I do hope that the people who have been inspired to read Ehrman's book due to the existence of this thread, regardless of their beliefs, would have similar honesty and courage to examine not only what they believe, but what others do as well. Clearly, you believe otherwise.

Good work, Hokulele. Too bad you didn't have an avatar bet.

 

[Ocelot]

Good work, Hokulele. Too bad you didn't have an avatar bet.

I suspect that the only person Kathy would deem suitable to judge the outcome has been conspicuous by his silence for a millenium or two.

 

[Ladewig]

Kathy, I really hope you find the happiness and contentment you seem to need so much. Having so much anxiety from speculating that Obama is the anti-Christ and that the end times are so near and that some books are dangerous cannot be fulfilling. There are many ways to carry Christ's message. I am baffled as to why you think preaching at JREF members is the best use of the limited time you have on Earth. Surely there are those that will be more receptive to your message. It is practically sinful to use your time here when you could be converting new people to Jesus.

I have made this request to you many times before. I make it once more because reading the last few pages of this thread made me see how frightened you are. I have religious friends who take comfort in their religion. Ulike you, they understand that a literal interpretation of the Bible is not necessary to accept Christ's gift. Seriously, Kathy, go find a better use of your time than annoying atheists who know more about the Bible than you do.

 

[Ocelot]

Ehrman discusses in this book his own personal anguish of not being able to reconcile the claims of faith with the facts of life and thus challenges everyone to evaluate what we believe about how God engages with the world. In his experience it pretty much sounds like he finds that if there is a God he could not allow such pain and sufferring in the world so he has concluded there is no God. He is just plain wrong and blinded to who God really is. God is Holy and we cannot fathom what that means. He must deal with sin and judge this world for it. If we repent and hold onto Jesus we know are sins are forgiven, but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen to us either. It just means when we die,(which we all will due to the penalty for sin is death) we will not stand judgement and we will go onto heaven our permanent home. "The sufferings of this world do not compare to all the Lord has planned for those who love and put their trust in him!" This is my response to Ehrmans book, true faith makes this belief possible and we can know the one true God who saves through Christ our Lord.

Thanks for responding Kathy. It's a shame that you didn't address the issue that Hokelule was asking for. The issue of works vs faith. Would you care to comment on the idea that it is up to us to make the world a better place?

 

[joobz]

He actually put a lot of scripture in this book which surprised me but then what he did with it is insulting for those of us who have true faith.

For example? This is a generic claim that can be said about any book dealing with the bible. Perhaps you can provide some examples of what he did that was "insulting".

If I thought Ehrman was trying to reason anything true I would not be so harsh but he has made it okay to doubt God in his writings and thats not right. God is not mocked and people will do better if they learn this.

Again, what reasons do you have for thinking that Ehrman isn't being true. Is it just because he came to a different conclusion than you?

 

[joobz]

Did you really think I would be influenced to turn to the dark side by reading this?

Are you christian or a jedi knight?

ETA:

I believe that if God and God's love are struck down by Ehrman then they will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Nominated!

 

[RoboTimbo]

I find it harmful to read this book and advise others to stay away from the authors wrong influence.

This puts the book on my must-read list.

Thank you, Kathy!

 

[tsig]

He actually put a lot of scripture in this book which surprised me but then what he did with it is insulting for those of us who have true faith.

If I thought Ehrman was trying to reason anything true I would not be so harsh but he has made it okay to doubt God in his writings and thats not right. God is not mocked and people will do better if they learn this.

Jesus wore dirty diapers. Humm.. god can be mocked.

 

[tsig]

I suspect that the only person Kathy would deem suitable to judge the outcome has been conspicuous by his silence for a millenium or two.

If Jesus came down from the cross and told the Christians they were wrong he would be back up there in the blink of an eye.

 

[Ocelot]

Kathy,

Let's get back to faith vs works.

I'd like to introduce a few hypothetical characters, their good works and their beliefs.

All five volunteer for a charity, helping people who through little fault of their own have hit hard times. People who with a little assistance can be encouraged to get their lives back on track and become productive forces for good in society. All five think that this is the best use of their time in improving the world for future generations.

Arnie is an agnostic atheist.

He finds no evidence for God and so assumes that he doesn't exist even if he doesn't know for sure. When he helps people he gets a sense of fulfillment. He believes that this is because human beings are social animals who are at our best when we support each other.

Barney is a moderate Christian.

He doesn't believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, merely the product of fallible humanity recording a distorted oral history. However he believes that the inspiration for these stories was a very real and holy Jesus who displayed an uncanny god given knowledge of mans relationship with the divine. When he helps people he gets a sense of fulfillment. He believes that this is the divine spirit he calls Christ encouraging and fortifying him.

Charlie is a fundamentalist Christian.

He believes that the Bible is the literal word of God, that the men recording, translating and editing these stories were guided by the Holy spirit to produce the infallible word of God. As such he believes that Jesus died for his sins and that the only way to avoid eternal torment is to subsume ones will to God. He believes that it is Gods will that Charlie should volunteer for this charity and that in carrying out Gods will he will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Daniel is a moderate Muslim.

He believes that the Qur'an was Mohammed's earnest attempt to record what he understood as Allah's word. He believes that Mohammed had an uncanny god given knowledge of man's relationship with the divine. When he helps people he gets a sense of fulfillment. He believes that this is the Divine spirit he calls Allah encouraging and fortifying him.

Eshan is a fundamentalist Muslim.

He believes that the Qur'an is the literal word of God and Mohammed and that those who transcribed his words we guided by Allah to produce the infallible word of God. As such he believes that the only way to avoid eternal torment is to subsume ones will to Allah. He believes that it is Allah’s will that Eshan should volunteer for this charity and that in carrying out Allah’s will he will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Arnie doesn't believe that he's going to heaven or hell, as he's not sure that either exist. He does his good works for the benefit of his fellow man. He thinks that the good works of the other four will produce the same benefit for his fellow man.

Barney believes that he's going the heaven. He does his good work for the benefit of his fellow man and believes that God will reward his kindness. He believes that the Divine spirit he experience comes to each of us in different guises and that the other four will also be rewarded for their good works.

Charlie believes that he's going to heaven. He does his good work for the glory of God and believes that Jesus will reward his faith and devotion. He's saddened that Arnie, Daniel and Eshan will be going to hell unless they mend their ways and he's not too sure about Barney either.

Daniel believes that he's going the heaven. He does his good work for the benefit of his fellow man and believes that Allah will reward his kindness. He believes that the Divine spirit he experiences comes to each of us different guises and that the other four will also be rewarded for their good works.

Eshan believes that he's going to heaven. He does his good work for the glory of Allah and believes that Allah will reward his faith and devotion. He's saddened that Arnie, Barney and Charlie will be going to hell unless they mend their ways and he's not too sure about Daniel either.

So Kathy, lets imagine that I've been helped by these five people. I'm impressed with their practical assistance and their advice on how to put my life back on track. However they've all expressed their guiding philosophies to me in doing so. I spot a slight contradiction between some of them. How should I tell which of them is right?

I'm not asking you to give me the answer and tell me which of them is right. In fact I'm very politely requesting that you please refrain from doing so just for a moment. I'm asking you instead, what method I should use to guide me to the right answer.

 

[thaiboxerken]

In regards to having actually "listened" to the book. I think Kathy's pants are on fire. Why try to discuss literature with a person who didn't actually read/listen to the book?

 

[Mr Clingford]

Are you christian or a jedi knight?

ETA:

Nominated!

Cheers. Like you, I was tickled by kk's turn of phrase!

 

[temporalillusion]

So you are advising censorship? Viewpoints that you do not agree with are to be avoided rather than honestly examined? I find this stance completely abhorrent and impossible to reconcile with your earlier pleas for open-mindedness.

This is standard boiler plate evangelicalism though. Anything that doesn't agree with the way you currently think should be thrown out. Everything that doesn't agree exactly with what you already think is of the world and is to be avoided at all costs. I was taught this my whole life.

He actually put a lot of scripture in this book which surprised me but then what he did with it is insulting for those of us who have true faith.

You do know that Ehrman isn't just some guy with a book right? He's a professor and a well respected textual critic, and while his views of God are his own, much of what he says about scripture in this and his many other books are typical of the scholarly community at large, INCLUDING Christian scholars.

If anything Ehrman's been criticized for being too conventional in his books, people say that his books don't contain anything new rather just restate the current views of biblical scholarship.

Which may suck if you are a scholar, but for us laity it's great since we can read his stuff and get a better understanding of the Bible, not as distilled doctrine that is spoon fed by a pastor which ignores 90% of what's written, but understand it in the context it was written, the history of it, etc.

I challenge you to read Misquoting Jesus or Jesus Interrupted, you will find that the book you view as perfect is in fact filled with flaws. Things which CHRISTIAN scholars acknowledge and discuss and such.

The more you study the Bible, the more you realize that it's a human work by humans, which doesn't necessarily take away from it. It just takes away from those who use the Bible as an idol.

 

[Hokulele]

I believe that if God and God's love are struck down by Ehrman then they will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

 

[Roadtoad]

Why do you throw stones at me RT? Do you not realize when you point your finger acusing someone you have 3 more pointing back at you?

Do not judge or you will be judged by the righteous one who will one day make everything right. None of us are perfect because we are sinners, but I do not ever purposely tell lies so please stop with the rude accusations! I may not be a genius and know all things but do you really think it's fair to go around calling me a liar? I would appreciate an apology.

I have listened twice to this book and all it does is get me upset that this guy is leading others to believe his twisted version of thinking. Satan's favorite game is scripture twisting and from what I see in this book Ehrman is doing the same thing. Yes when we look at the sufferings people have gone through it doesn't seem to make sense but God has a purpose for all he allows.

I find it harmful to read this book and advise others to stay away from the authors wrong influence. He will one day stand before God and I do not think he will be happy with his judgement and how he is accountable for misleading others in his writings.

I'll stick with the Bible and studying God's word with spirit filled Pastors and Teachers thanks! If you want to truly know God I suggest you do the same!!

In other words, Kathy, you didn't read the book. You lie. You lied before, you are lying now, and you will continue to lie.

This is not casting stones. This is pointing out a fact. You are a liar.

 

[Roadtoad]

I will say this further, Kathy:

You are not owed an apology. You may not be a genius, but you are not genuine, either. From day one, you have lied to us about why you are here. Ducky pointed this out time and again, and you continued to lie about the evidence he posted. That demonstrates that you are incapable of telling the truth.

You have said some extraordinarily cruel things in the name of your god, and tried to weasel your way out of them. You deny ever having done so, even though the evidence has been shown repeatedly. You have lied about the evidence, and you have continued to demonstrate that you are incapable of telling the truth.

And now, Hokulele has asked you to do something relatively reasonable: Read this book and please discuss it with me. You lied about that, too.

You are not worth an apology. I have stated plain facts in regards to you and your dishonest husband. You are both liars. In fact, your behavior is so offensive, my wife refuses to have anything to do with you, even though at one point, she actually considered it. I would ask you to check with folks on this board who have met Peggy, and ask their opinion of my wife, but in the end, I know you won't. You would say you have, or that you will, and you will claim to have done so, but you won't have lifted a finger in that direction. You lie, Kathy. You are a liar.

Frankly, if I were to confront your pastor with your actions, I'm willing to bet if he were an honest man, he'd ask you to deny yourselves communion for the sin of lying, at least until there were some evidence of public repentance for your very public display. The problem is, I suspect he's been supporting you in this disgusting and self-serving activity of yours, which, in turn, makes him as much of a liar as you are. We won't know that, however, because nothing you say can be believed. You lie, Kathy. Anything you say about your pastor must be verified by an independent source, apart from you, because you lie. You are a liar.

You have no courage to face those who confront you about your faith. Ehrman's not saying what you want to hear, but rather than deal with him honestly, you lie again, "listen" to his book, (another lie; playing it in the background without devoting an moment's concentration to what you're hearing is not listening), then claim it's Satanic and harmful. If you'd even read your Bible once, you might have realized that you are supposed to be able to confront people like Ehrman without fear. But, then, perhaps you haven't even read the Bible, but rather you're here repeating what other people have had to say about the Bible. You lie again, Kathy. You are a liar.

All of which sums up my near fury with you, that you are not here out of compassion for us. You lie again, because what you and Christian Dude are here for is to look good, build a base of power in your congregation, and maybe, eventually, open your own little Calvary Chapel franchise. (Profitable, those.) Your presence here is motivated by some very selfish desires, and you have been called out about that. We know you too well here, now, and we're not going to allow you to get away with this.

Frankly, the most decent thing that could happen here is the moderators banning the both of you. No, you haven't violated the MA. But you have certainly not come here to uphold the mission of JREF. Quite the opposite: your actions demonstrate that you're here to do everything you can to frustrate JREF's central mission, and that you're convinced you're doing so in the name of Jesus for the good of the country. Again, another lie.

No, Kathy. I won't apologize for calling you and Christian Dude what you two are. You are cruel, you lie, and you are beneath contempt. And if you were honest with yourselves, you would see that.

You're not. And you don't.

 

[Moochie]

He actually put a lot of scripture in this book which surprised me but then what he did with it is insulting for those of us who have true faith.

How the heck would you know that yours is the "true faith"? Did Chuck tell you? Do you realize how supremely arrogant this sounds?

If I thought Ehrman was trying to reason anything true I would not be so harsh but he has made it okay to doubt God in his writings and thats not right. God is not mocked and people will do better if they learn this.

You might read some of Ehrman's other books -- he is a biblical scholar par excellence, and what he knows of all things biblical leaves you, CD, and Chuck in the dust.

But like a child putting his/her hands over the ears and tightly shutting the eyes and loudly yelling gibberish to drown out whatever he/she does not want to hear, you, CD, and Chuck strenuously avoid admitting any opposing information into your minds, no matter how true such information might be.


M.

 

[Roadtoad]

How the heck would you know that yours is the "true faith"? Did Chuck tell you? Do you realize how supremely arrogant this sounds?

You might read some of Ehrman's other books -- he is a biblical scholar par excellence, and what he knows of all things biblical leaves you, CD, and Chuck in the dust.

But like a child putting his/her hands over the ears and tightly shutting the eyes and loudly yelling gibberish to drown out whatever he/she does not want to hear, you, CD, and Chuck strenuously avoid admitting any opposing information into your minds, no matter how true such information might be.


M.

This reminds me, Mooch, of a guy who used to post here. He kept telling me I was full of crap. Why, HE had a CDL, he knew how to drive a truck! He had no time behind the wheel of a commercial vehicle, but he knew more about it than I did. (Right. I've got over two million miles under my wheels, my buddy, Will has closer to five, and he's going to tell us that we don't know jack about driving trucks.)

Kathy's the same way. God forbid she should ever admit she doesn't know something!

 

[MIKILLINI]

Ehrman discusses in this book his own personal anguish of not being able to reconcile the claims of faith with the facts of life and thus challenges everyone to evaluate what we believe about how God engages with the world. In his experience it pretty much sounds like he finds that if there is a God he could not allow such pain and sufferring in the world so he has concluded there is no God.

This is it? This seems more like a guess on your behalf, although I haven't read the book it appears you read only the prologue. But now, this is usually where you stop commenting on a subject, flip a switch and engage the Godbot mode.

He is just plain wrong and blinded to who God really is. God is Holy and we cannot fathom what that means. He must deal with sin and judge this world for it. If we repent and hold onto Jesus we know are sins are forgiven, but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen to us either. It just means when we die,(which we all will due to the penalty for sin is death) we will not stand judgement and we will go onto heaven our permanent home. "The sufferings of this world do not compare to all the Lord has planned for those who love and put their trust in him!" This is my response to Ehrmans book, true faith makes this belief possible and we can know the one true God who saves through Christ our Lord.

So typical of you Kathy.