Real problems and uncertainties with vaccinations

[Eos of the Eons]

Now. Let's look at overblown antivaxxer claims:

They say that vaccines cause autism, reduced IQs, more rates of illness (from so-called overwhelmed immune systems), cause every disease under the sun-including diabetes and asthma, etc.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=864692

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=991668


Novella tries to address this, but nobody from those forums are going to listen to him:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=308

 

[kellyb]

Here's another uncertainty:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/572891

 

[RationalVetMed]

I have an idea that if this info. was presented in the right way along with the benefits of vaccination, parents who are worried about having their children vaccinated would be able to use the rational parts of their brain to make the decision, which should hopefully get many more of them choosing to vaccinate (though perhaps not precisely to the CDC's schedule).

Well the NHS have a 'draw up a personalised immunisation schedule' page as well as a lot of good information about risks and benefits and the science behind vaccines, details of how they're produced etc.

Any site giving an honest appraisal of vaccine risks should include a mention that the situation is constantly under review and as problems become apparent they are being dealt with - more than can be said of any cam practices (especially nosodes in this case) for which there are no checks and balances and whose practitioners go into denial quicker than a sea anemone at low tide if questioned about efficacy, safety or any other reductionist details like that.

Yuri

 

[Leviath]

Unfortunately the anti-vaxx propaganda is starting to emerge here in Norway (we've been mostly spared so far) so this thread looks promising for references. I have read some of our local nut-cases' propaganda and I do see how they mix in problems we know existed with some out-of-date vaccines with their current imaginary connections to autism and diseases. It's the good old argument "it was harmful 20 years ago, hence it is harmful now too".

I also want to add to this thread that I read somewhere (can't remember where and I can't link yet anyway) that research is being done to replace aluminium in vaccines. Not because it is thought to be harmful, but because more effective subtances are believed to exist. From what I recall aluminium works as some kind of catalyst or "booster" for the vaccines.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

The only people who make the claim that vaccines should be 100% safe and effective are the anti-vaxxer (pro-disease) nuts... The problems assoiciated with vaccines are NOT autism, but there are cases of adverse reactions, infections, and the like. However, the risk of these problems are deemed acceptable compared to the diseases they prevent. As is the case in pretty much ALL of medicine and even your every day life (the risk of dying in a car crash is outweighed by your desire to get somewhere quicker, etc.).

 

[Deetee]

what's the confused smiley for?

To indicate my incomprehension of the "english" language, .....and my despair.

(Not at you, but the reference)

 

[Deetee]

Bedtime reading:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=9899#toc

Chapter on health effects


(Can you read it so I don't have to?)

I don't really understood why it actually di take so long to phase out mercury from vaccines. It just never seemed to be considered a public health priority, and there were all those assurances that it caused no harm. Despite no evidence that it did cause harm, removal was correct on the precautionary principle, given that mercury may cause neurological damage in infants/fetuses. As has been expounded before, the decision to remove it was one that was agonised over (Smallwood) Simpsonwood - The mercury militia would (and did) jump on this decision as an admission thimerosal did cause autism, and I can see why some were hesitant to advise it should be removed for these reasons, given the lack of evidence of harm stemming from its inclusion.
Multidose vials are also a bad idea anyhow - the potential risk for errors, contamination etc being real (albeit small). Why didn't people move to single dose vials earlier? I dunno. As to why thimerosal was originally chosen as a preservative? Not sure. perhaps the alternatives around at the time had even less going for them?

Correction as above.
It felt so wrong, it felt so right.... when I typed it.
Smallwood was the Prince of Wales' report into integrative medicine.
Simpsonwood was the one I meant - the CDC meeting on vaccines and autism.

 

[Deetee]

Here's another uncertainty:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/572891

Retrospective study in Canada indicating delaying whole pertussis vaccine (DTP) reduced the incidence of asthma.

Limitations of this study include possible ascertainment bias; findings not yet confirmed with the DaPT vaccine; and inability to refute the issue of early-life infections as an explanation for the association between delayed immunization and protection against the development of asthma.

Important points.
We don't know if this applies to the DTaP vaccine used currently.
We don't know if the reasons DTP was delayed in the children was a confounder - the vaccines may have been deferred because the children had a coincidental infection, and infections themselves appear to reduce the incidence of asthma.

 

[Capsid]

Which concern? There's this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUSN1429730720070314

Ok thanks. I'd read elsewhere that this wasn't occurring. Just goes to show you need to read around.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

So, even if there was methyl mercury in the vaccines, it would have been below the harmful levels, but it's not even methyl mercury, it's ethyl mercury and that is not toxic to the body, and gets excreted far more quickly.

Ethyl mercury is toxic to the body, though almost certainly not in the doses (previously) received from vaccinations.

 

[RationalVetMed]

From what I recall aluminium works as some kind of catalyst or "booster" for the vaccines.

The term is adjuvant.

Yuri

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Well the NHS have a 'draw up a personalised immunisation schedule' page as well as a lot of good information about risks and benefits and the science behind vaccines, details of how they're produced etc.

I had a look at the NHS immunisation site over the weekend and was quite impressed with it, mainly because it didn't appear to be spinning the facts to try to get parents to have their children vaccinated.

Any site giving an honest appraisal of vaccine risks should include a mention that the situation is constantly under review and as problems become apparent they are being dealt with - more than can be said of any cam practices (especially nosodes in this case) for which there are no checks and balances and whose practitioners go into denial quicker than a sea anemone at low tide if questioned about efficacy, safety or any other reductionist details like that.

Yuri

I agree. I think explaining the prisoner's dilemma parents face with respect to some vaccinations might also be worthwhile.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

The term is adjuvant.

Yuri

IIRC, no one knows quite how they work either.

 

[RationalVetMed]

IIRC, no one knows quite how they work either.

cough... the term is adjuvant. I 'spec they boost the immune system.

Yuri

 

[Leviath]

The term is adjuvant.

Yuri

Thank you. Here's a little bit about it (replace the xx with tt):
hxxp://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118783452/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Does anyone know more about this allegded link between aluminium in vaccines and alzheimer?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

We encounter the minerals (aluminum salts) used in vaccines every day because they occur naturally in our food and water. They are safely used as ingredients in cake mixes, deodorant, antiperspirant, and other every day items:
"Aluminum is a very abundant element in our environment. It is in many foods we eat, many personal hygiene products we apply to our skin (deodorants, for example), and many medicines we ingest. Thus, all infants are exposed to aluminum in the environment. Breast milk, for example, contains approximately 40 micrograms of aluminum per litre, and infant formulas contain an average of approximately 225 micrograms of aluminum per litre."

Even people trying to go "all natural" for their food sources still get the same doses of these minerals in their "natural" food and water sources. Aluminum and other minerals are a natural part of our world. Even water can kill us if we drink too much of it at once. Water is also a chemical. The claims that vaccines are poisonous are simply not true. People can say the same about the water, but you have to drink far more water than could ever be used in vaccines before it will kill you.

http://www.stopjenny.com/VaccineInformation.html

No, the aluminum in vaccines doesn't cause Alzheimers.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Ethyl mercury is toxic to the body, though almost certainly not in the doses (previously) received from vaccinations.

Actually it's not. It's in a form the body doesn't process, it is just elimated. To be toxic the body must be affected by it, usually by attempting to utilize it, store, etc. It's like you're trying to say Splenda could be like sugar to the body, but it is in a form that the body just excretes it.

Would recommend a chemistry course. Even formaldehyde is broken down before it is toxic to the body.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I had a look at the NHS immunisation site over the weekend and was quite impressed with it, mainly because it didn't appear to be spinning the facts to try to get parents to have their children vaccinated.



I agree. I think explaining the prisoner's dilemma parents face with respect to some vaccinations might also be worthwhile.

Spin? Do tell.

Prisoner's dilemma. Do tell on that as well.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Actually it's not. It's in a form the body doesn't process, it is just elimated. To be toxic the body must be affected by it, usually by attempting to utilize it, store, etc. It's like you're trying to say Splenda could be like sugar to the body, but it is in a form that the body just excretes it.

Would recommend a chemistry course. Even formaldehyde is broken down before it is toxic to the body.

So this is wrong? (from my first link):

Ethyl mercury in the form of thimerosal has found wide application in medicine as a disinfectant. Axton (54) reported case histories of four children and two adults severely poisoned by accidental exposure. Five of the six cases died. Rohyans et al. (55) reported a case of severe poisoning from treatment of an infected ear. Pfab et al. (56) reported on an attempted suicide from drinking a solution of thimerosal, resulting in severe poisoning. Treatment of infants with omphaloceles resulted in high levels of mercury in autopsy tissues (57). Cases of human poisoning have also occurred from infusion of large volumes of plasma containing thimerosal as a preservative (58,59).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but there are known allergies to some of the ingredients in some vaccinations.

ETA: Not much of a problem when the allergy is known:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080902074557.htm