Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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In post #1 I explain why a one-way crush down process is not possible under any circumstances, sizes, scales, &c, where upper part C is <1/10A and C is dropped on A.

It also explains why controlled demolition companies do not drop top parts of buildings to demolish them. It doesn't work.

If you have been paying attention, and following the links that people post in response to your blather, you would, if you are not retarded, know that it has been done and it WORKED. Google it. BALZAC+VITRY.

You do know how to at least Google, don't you?

I find it amazing that I have to explain this easy to understand phenomenons, jolt, arrest and bounce, to the public. Do people really believe that structures just collapse by themselves, when you drop a little piece of them on them selves?

That doesn't happen in the real world. Only between the ears of lunatics is it possible for the top of a building to bounce off the lower part when the middle fails.
 
Both results confirm that C cannot crush down A as per the Björkman Axiom.

Wiki on Axiom:
In traditional logic, an axiom or postulate is a proposition that is not proved or demonstrated but considered to be either self-evident, or subject to necessary decision. Therefore, its truth is taken for granted, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other (theory dependent) truths. In mathematics, the term axiom is used in two related but distinguishable senses: "logical axioms" and "non-logical axioms". In both senses, an axiom is any mathematical statement that serves as a starting point from which other statements are logically derived. Unlike theorems, axioms (unless redundant) cannot be derived by principles of deduction, nor are they demonstrable by mathematical proofs, simply because they are starting points; there is nothing else from which they logically follow (otherwise they would be classified as theorems).
Sir, me thinks your Axiom is broken. :D
 
Well, I didn't particularly wish to do this but....... there are a few questions which need to be answered in the context of what actually happened.

Here are the basics - in overview and applicable to WTC 1 and WTC 2.

First there was a sequence of events which should be agreed common ground to any reasonable proponent from "either side" if I list them this way:
  1. (Someone may have pre-positioned demolition devices - multiple options have been suggested); There may have been pre-cutting to assist collapse;
  2. Plane strikes tower and does damage, starts fire, disables fire fighting etc BUT tower remains standing;
  3. Fires rage and do other damage. (Pro demolition supporters would want the option to include some demolition here depending on their specific hypothesis);
  4. Some trigger point is reached and the Top Block starts to move downwards;
  5. The "Global collapse phase is started;
  6. ...and rapidly runs to completion;
  7. ...aftermath - not of interest for this post.

Now I would like to address the several references to the "Global Collapse" phase. It starts at the trigger point of "4" and how we got to four is now irrelevant - whether by crash plus fire plus consequences plus a uniquely vulnerable building OR all that plus a little demolition.

Save the debate of what caused the initial collapse for later - let's look at the global collapse.

Now in the global collapse phase there were three parts of structure potentially available to resist and possibly arrest the fall of the "Top Block". Those three are:
  1. The columns of the outer wall tube;
  2. The core; AND
  3. The floors between the core and outer wall (accepting that those floors depended on the columns of the core and the outer wall tube).

Now taking the outer wall columns first the evidence is clear that they peeled off and fell away and were not crushed. Whatever the proportion of load they were designed for they were not involved in resisting the fall of the top block with their full strength. Two options we need to consider
  • The no demolition option - that the descending mass sheared the joist to column connectors; AND
  • The demolition option - they were cut (and the option supported by most pro demolition claimants id explosive cutting of "something" and it wasn't the outer columns so it must be some part of the joist and the connection is obvious preference). (But "their call" - it is their hypothesis.)

Next come the outer tube floors which I would posit failed at the inner end by the same mechanism as the failure at the outer end. And I am still leaving the option open for the pro demolition folk to insert explosives.

Then the core. There are many claims for the core. I will take only the first and obvious steps at this stage. The core consists of the falling bit of the top block and the standing bit of the lower tower. Despite all the rhetoric about it being strong (it was in its original and designed function) the collapse situation at the start saw the core as if it was the two cut halves of a bird cage with very thick bars and beams. BUT a hell of a lot of space.

Many folk from both sides seem to presume that the falling core would land on the standing core and meet a full strength resistance. That is clearly not so. I will explain qualitatively at this stage leaving quantitative till later.

(And this is the point where I move from what should be agreed position towards my own interpretation.)

And I remind the non-engineers that the original usage of a column properly braced is to resist axial loads where compression is the critical and most likely mode. If deflected or bent and if not loaded centrally the axial strength is severely reduced. Similarly cross beams in the core are not designed for the massive loads of multiple floors.

So the "thick wire bird cage" of the top block core falls onto the thick wire birdcage of the lower core and a lot of the columns do not land on columns properly centred to take full original design axial load. Some columns miss altogether at the first fall others "hit and glance off," possible bending one or the other. And some horizontal beams land on other horizontal beams and bend them because they impact with way over design load. And to add insult to injury those struck beams when bending pull their end columns out of line and weaken those columns.

And the chance of some columns missing altogether must be high. (Remember I am not quantifying at this stage.)

Now there are many permutations and combinations BUT the total effect is that the falling core meets only the resistance from a fraction of the strength that the core originally had. AND it is a dynamically applied load.

So simply put and leaving all the interaction and second order effects till a later post this is what happened. (Now fully my opinion - and still leaving justification till later)

The falling Top Block wedged itself inside the outer columns ("proof" relatively trivial but deferred) It took no significant part other than resisting the fall to the shear strength failure of the joist connections (Or taking no part if we accept demolition in the global collapse)

The inner end of the joist to core column fails the same way and for the same reason. Either the falling weight of floors plus debris was overwhelming Or demolition.

The core contributes some resistance but could not be enough to stop the top block - several aspects here and all answerable later if needed.

Now in that scenario it is clear that no explosives were needed. Nor are any detailed calculations. 10 floors of total structure in the lesser case lands dynamically on the floor designed to hold one full floor load statically and it has a safety factor. No support from outer tube very reduced support of core by core. And the core would not add significant support if any to the outer floors. Again another bold assertion backable by reasons if needed.

So there is the basic outline of what I suggest happened. Other posters in recent days/weeks have supported parts of it - I have not seen the full overview posted in the couple of weeks I have been her.

So that is the background against which recent questions about the "Global collapse" can be answered. And I look forward to other comments or answering some of those questions myself.

Before getting into this long post Oz will you clear up one thing for me ?

People often speak of a 'drop', but can you explain what they mean exactly ? You see as I see it the two blocks, C being the upper 10% and A being the lower 90% were connected by about 300 columns both core and perimeter. We know that the plane severed about 40 perimeter clumns and a few core ones.That left at least 250 columns still holdng up the top block (around 85%). So how did we get from that situation to the situation of a 'drop' which is often reated as though it was a freefall drop ? Where did the remaining 85% of the connecting columns come into the picture ?
 
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Unfortunately we can only lead the horses to the water. The next task is to persuade them them to drink. That's the hard part.
Substitute "kool-aid" for "water" and this statement is 100% correct.
 
If you have been paying attention, and following the links that people post in response to your blather, you would, if you are not retarded, know that it has been done and it WORKED. Google it. BALZAC+VITRY.

You do know how to at least Google, don't you?



That doesn't happen in the real world. Only between the ears of lunatics is it possible for the top of a building to bounce off the lower part when the middle fails.

But Balzac/Vitry is a controlled demolition by clever French, where part C = part A, and where both parts C and A are destroyed in the collision. Ok, parts of part A remain afterwards. It has nothing to do with a one-way crush down = topic. It is rather a two-way crush down or destruction. It has been explained many times in other threads. At Balzac/Vitry you have to physically destroy the supports of three floors just to get the two-way destruction started.
 
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bill smith; said:
Before getting into this long post Oz will you clear up one thing for me ?

People often speak of a 'drop', but can you explain what they mean exactly ? You see as I see it the two blocks, C being the upper 10% and A being the lower 90% were connected by about 300 columns both core and perimeter. We know that the plane severed about 40 perimeter clumns and a few core ones.That left at least 250 columns still holdng up the top block (around 85%). So how did we get from that situation to the situation of a 'drop' which is often reated as though it was a freefall drop ? Where did the remaining 85% of the connecting columns come into the picture ?

Just believe in magic. Any remaining support suddenly vanished, OK, permitting the top to accelerate under virtually irresistible gravity at 9.8m/s/s, to create all that amazing low resistance kinetic energy explosiveness that we witnessed. Steelwork was no longer ductile on 9/11, but amazingly brittle. Perhaps an invisible and very heavy giant god stomped on the buildings. Might have been the old Jesus fish Age of Pisces sun god dude throwing a temper tantrum since we are now in the New Age of Aquarius, so we need a new sun god messiah for the profane peasants to worship with blind faith!
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
 
Just believe in magic. Any remaining support suddenly vanished, OK, permitting the top to accelerate under virtually irresistible gravity at 9.8m/s/s, to create all that amazing low resistance kinetic energy explosiveness that we witnessed. Steelwork was no longer ductile on 9/11, but amazingly brittle. Perhaps an invisible and very heavy giant god stomped on the buildings. Might have been the old Jesus fish Age of Pisces sun god dude throwing a temper tantrum since we are now in the New Age of Aquarius, so we need a new sun god messiah for the profane peasants to worship with blind faith!
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

Amazing how many experts believe in that magic, isn't it? Maybe it seems like magic to you because you have no idea what you're talking about and understand nothing about how the structure actually collapsed? That's usually how reports of 'magic' get started, you know.
 
Before getting into this long post Oz will you clear up one thing for me ?

People often speak of a 'drop', but can you explain what they mean exactly ? You see as I see it the two blocks, C being the upper 10% and A being the lower 90% were connected by about 300 columns both core and perimeter. We know that the plane severed about 40 perimeter clumns and a few core ones.That left at least 250 columns still holdng up the top block (around 85%). So how did we get from that situation to the situation of a 'drop' which is often reated as though it was a freefall drop ? Where did the remaining 85% of the connecting columns come into the picture ?

You have hitched your wagon to Heiwa who makes up real stupid idea based on his delusional views of 911. You don't have a clue that the people who you support are dolts on 911 issues. I suggest you go to school and obtain a doctorate in engineering before 7 mores years pass and you will still support idiotic ideas on 911. 911Truth is like Bigfoot save all the scat 911Truth has.

You could save looking stupid in engineering by going to an engineer and asking; we have several engineers here, but you are not listening to them.

If Heiwa is saying a gravity collapse of the WTC towers are not possible he is wrong since 911 and the ideas is terminally stupid. The chief structural engineer agrees with me that the order of magnitude greater than designed for impacts of 911 critically wounded the towers and the fires started on multiple floors with 66,000 pounds of fuel caused the gravity collapse of the WTC towers.

Heiwa has not built buildings; Robertson did build the towers and he says the collapse mechanism is how they would respond after the impacts and fires. You have picked the dumbest ideas to believe due to your complete lack of knowledge in the subject areas. Go get an engineer to help you; can't you do any original research?
 
You have hitched your wagon to Heiwa who makes up real stupid idea based on his delusional views of 911. You don't have a clue that the people who you support are dolts on 911 issues. I suggest you go to school and obtain a doctorate in engineering before 7 mores years pass and you will still support idiotic ideas on 911. 911Truth is like Bigfoot save all the scat 911Truth has.

You could save looking stupid in engineering by going to an engineer and asking; we have several engineers here, but you are not listening to them.

If Heiwa is saying a gravity collapse of the WTC towers are not possible he is wrong since 911 and the ideas is terminally stupid. The chief structural engineer agrees with me that the order of magnitude greater than designed for impacts of 911 critically wounded the towers and the fires started on multiple floors with 66,000 pounds of fuel caused the gravity collapse of the WTC towers.

Heiwa has not built buildings; Robertson did build the towers and he says the collapse mechanism is how they would respond after the impacts and fires. You have picked the dumbest ideas to believe due to your complete lack of knowledge in the subject areas. Go get an engineer to help you; can't you do any original research?

I am not as impressed with Robertson as you are Beachnut.I know another 600 degreed building professionnals who don't agree with him either. In fact I hink ole Les might be in a bit of a bind when this finally unravels. Accusations of Treason may be the order of the day. You see he is one of the people who will be seen not to be wearing any underpants when the tide goes out.
 
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Then there should have been a deceleration of the upper block when the core columns were pounded. Why isn't there one?

There were many thousands of small decelerations as component hit component during a chaotic and off-centre collapse. But, as the two sections were not unit structures, there was no single collision that could give rise to a visible unitary deceleration of the entire block. Gregory Urich explained this perfectly well to you already.

Are you really an engineer? In what field?
 
Before getting into this long post Oz will you clear up one thing for me ?

People often speak of a 'drop', but can you explain what they mean exactly ? You see as I see it the two blocks, C being the upper 10% and A being the lower 90% were connected by about 300 columns both core and perimeter. We know that the plane severed about 40 perimeter clumns and a few core ones.That left at least 250 columns still holdng up the top block (around 85%). So how did we get from that situation to the situation of a 'drop' which is often reated as though it was a freefall drop ? Where did the remaining 85% of the connecting columns come into the picture ?

bill there are really only two points about the tower collapses which need explanation.
  1. The initial collapse - Point 4 in the sequence I included in my post; AND
  2. The Global Collapse - Point 5 in my post.
I specifically went to point 5 first because:
  1. It is the easiest to explain to people who have limited technical understanding. So it makes a better starting point for explanation than the more complex "initial collapse mechanism" of points 3 & 4; AND
  2. It was the phase where Tony Szamboti has, incorrectly in my view, criticised and disagreed with posting members who have commented on Szamboti's own flawed explanation.

So it is a bit cheeky for you to suggest I reverse the order I offered to post in.

If we agree to a model for the global collapse we can turn to the earlier initial collapse. I have presented the Global Collapse whilst allowing the points where a pro demolition person may wish to insert demolition.

Demolition was unnecessary given the way that the towers collapsed.

AND there is no sustainable evidence that demolition was used in that phase even though it was not necessary.

I am not aware of any pro demolition advocate supporting use of demolition in the global collapse whilst acknowledging that it was not needed.

EDIT Typos
 
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You have hitched your wagon to Heiwa who makes up real stupid idea based on his delusional views of 911. You don't have a clue that the people who you support are dolts on 911 issues. I suggest you go to school and obtain a doctorate in engineering before 7 mores years pass and you will still support idiotic ideas on 911. 911Truth is like Bigfoot save all the scat 911Truth has.
You could save looking stupid in engineering by going to an engineer and asking; we have several engineers here, but you are not listening to them.
If Heiwa is saying a gravity collapse of the WTC towers are not possible he is wrong since 911 and the ideas is terminally stupid. The chief structural engineer agrees with me that the order of magnitude greater than designed for impacts of 911 critically wounded the towers and the fires started on multiple floors with 66,000 pounds of fuel caused the gravity collapse of the WTC towers. Heiwa has not built buildings; Robertson did build the towers and he says the collapse mechanism is how they would respond after the impacts and fires. You have picked the dumbest ideas to believe due to your complete lack of knowledge in the subject areas. Go get an engineer to help you; can't you do any original research?

Really? Please source the designed impact parameters from the towers? To our knowledge they have never been produced. FEMA told you Beechnut what those parameters were. Why do you forget?
-----------------------
From the Seattle Times
Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision
Business: Saturday, February 27, 1993
Eric Nalder

Engineers had to consider every peril they could imagine when they designed the World Trade Center three decades ago because, at the time, the twin towers were of unprecedented size for structures made of steel and glass.

"We looked at every possible thing we could think of that could happen to the buildings, even to the extent of an airplane hitting the side," said John Skilling, head structural engineer. "However, back in those days people didn't think about terrorists very much."


Skilling, (head Structural Engineer of the WTC based in Seattle), is among the world's top structural engineers.

Ok, lets see what one of the best in the world have to offer.


He is responsible for much of Seattle's downtown skyline and for several of the world's tallest structures, including the Trade Center.

Apparently a person in the know! After all he was the head honcho in the design of the building.

Concerned because of a case where an airplane hit the Empire State Building, Skilling's people did an analysis that showed the towers would withstand the impact of a Boeing 707.

Remember, the date of the interview is 1993. To remove the size matters argument. The planes although different in size are marginalized based upon the difference in length: 6 feet and the width of 10 feet. And actually the building was designed to withstand the 707's greater cruising speed of 607 mph versus the 767's 530mph. (data from FEMA's report)


"Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed," he said. "The building structure would still be there."

So even after a crash, and the fire, the designer states the building would still be there!


Heiwa- I applaud you for your challenge and the persistence in the face of character attacks and non-sense.
You can tell by the responses alone these people will not accept the challenge because they can not achieve the stated goal in your challenge. Excuse after excuse is offered. No results are produced.

I suspect this is EXACTLY why NIST did not model the global collapse and offered the excuse "too chaotic to model". They didn't model it because it CAN'T happen. You point that out quite eloquently at your website by using any material a skeptic wants to use be it lemons, pizza boxes, or for heaven's sakes a scale model of WTC 1.

It has been fun watching people offer the favorite tactic of a "debunker" ,attack the character, when confronted with the science. So true and so tired of a response.

One would think that this process would be EASY to model considering it happened twice in one day. One would think a supporter of the OCT would have fun modeling this process to shut people like Hewia up once and for all.
One would think this process would be enthusiastically modeled to shut the 9/11 Truth Movement up once and for all. But many of the response show exactly why Hewia's process isn't modeled. Because it simply can not happen.

Thanks again Hewia for your enlightenment.
 
...Heiwa- I applaud you for your challenge and the persistence in the face of character attacks and non-sense.
You can tell by the responses alone these people will not accept the challenge because they can not achieve the stated goal in your challenge. Excuse after excuse is offered. No results are produced.....

There is nothing scary about Heiwa's "Challenge" except that it does not model what happened at WTC on 9/11. HEiwa has designed the challenge in a way which does not model 9/11. Yes, there are some problems with it for what it does model but my interest is in 9/11 not Heiwa's arbitrary and unrelated model. So I see no benefit in commenting on Heiwa's model whilst ever he does not admit it is not WTC on 9/11 and there is risk of my comments being seen as endorsing it as relevant to WTC.

Heiwa has been fully informed of my position. All he has to say is "It doesn't represent 9/11" and I would be free to tell him what else is wrong or potentially wrong with his model.
 
Heiwa- I applaud you for your challenge and the persistence in the face of character attacks and non-sense.
You can tell by the responses alone these people will not accept the challenge because they can not achieve the stated goal in your challenge. Excuse after excuse is offered. No results are produced.

I suspect this is EXACTLY why NIST did not model the global collapse and offered the excuse "too chaotic to model". They didn't model it because it CAN'T happen. You point that out quite eloquently at your website by using any material a skeptic wants to use be it lemons, pizza boxes, or for heaven's sakes a scale model of WTC 1.

It has been fun watching people offer the favorite tactic of a "debunker" ,attack the character, when confronted with the science. So true and so tired of a response.

One would think that this process would be EASY to model considering it happened twice in one day. One would think a supporter of the OCT would have fun modeling this process to shut people like Hewia up once and for all.
One would think this process would be enthusiastically modeled to shut the 9/11 Truth Movement up once and for all. But many of the response show exactly why Hewia's process isn't modeled. Because it simply can not happen.

Thanks again Heiwa for your enlightenment.

My pleasure. I just started out 2007 teaching some kids scared of the WTC collapses, i.e. the destructions, that they could not take place due to fire and failures up top and gravity, &c.

Steel composite structures cannot be one-way crushed down by parts of themselves. I have 40+ years experience of those. And I put the lecture on the Internet. And there we are. Now it is up to the American people to do a proper 911 investigation.

I really wonder when the ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics will publish my paper about the impossibility of one-way crush down of a structure by a part of itself? It was handed in 3 February 2009.
 
Heiwa- I applaud you for your challenge and the persistence in the face of character attacks and non-sense.
You can tell by the responses alone these people will not accept the challenge because they can not achieve the stated goal in your challenge. Excuse after excuse is offered. No results are produced.

Except that his challenge was accepted, yet he basically refused to answer any of the posts. Couple that with the fact he backed out of actually paying any of the money he had promised, and you have a fraud. Way to continue your history of supporting frauds.
 
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