Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[MIKILLINI]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that tells me no matter how crummy or painful life gets for me or those around me God will one day wipe every tear away and restore us. Why he allows so much suffering is still and will always be a mystery.

Well you accept your suffering as a penalty for making bad choices earlier in life. Why are you any different than anyone else who had vices in their youth?

 

[Roadtoad]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that tells me no matter how crummy or painful life gets for me or those around me God will one day wipe every tear away and restore us. Why he allows so much suffering is still and will always be a mystery.

Our life is but a vapor that will pass quickly, but what we do while we are alive is what matters. I accept God on his terms, this does not mean I always understand him or why he allows certain things in life. Perhaps I have more understanding and empathy for others who suffer and this is the reason God allowed it in my own life.

In Don Pipers book 90 Minutes in Heaven he talks about this same subject. He went through way worse and I suggest you read his book to seek another perspective on this question of suffering. He has been able to minister to others who went through some of the same suffering he endured and feels that it was God's purpose in bringing him back from the dead in a fatal car crash even though what he went through was nothing none of us would want to go through. Worth a read.

Hey, nice dodge, there.

Funny, it seems to me that Warren Wiersbe had a better grasp on suffering, as did Dr. Walter Martin, than what you're projecting here. And even as you're continuing to bleat your "evangelism," you're continuing to ignore the whole point that Hokulele has been trying to make. This, of course, makes a lie of all you say.

And frankly, I resent that.

One thing you refuse to accept is that when it comes to suffering, (and I mean the real thing, not just mere tolerance of discomfort), there isn't any point behind it. Suffering simply happens. We all will endure it, from one degree or another, and the results are what they are. Some of us will endure it and emerge stronger. Most of us will simply go through it, and wind up wounded. More than a few of us will enter into it, and in the end, will be broken. There is no easy answer to this, and to suggest that there is not only denies the very god you claim as the author of your salvation, but it degrades those here who have gone through true suffering. It's an insult. And you know it.

You continue to appeal to our emotions, perpetuating the conclusion that you're dishonest and evasive, and this is further enforced by your refusal to actually read the book that you agreed to, rather that you listened to it in a recording. There was a reason behind asking you to actually read the book, and that you ignore those reasons indicates that what intelligence you possess, you refuse to use. It's an insult to people like Hokulele, and it's an insult to my wife, who, if she were in your shoes, would not only have read the book, but would have given honest, direct answers to questions posed.

Right now, Kathy, my "brother," Will, is in his room, sleeping. He lost his wife, Lani, a couple of years ago when she died of ovarian cancer. She knew something was wrong, but the employer where Will and I worked didn't provide health coverage, and it was discovered too late. Lani died in excruciating pain after the cancer metastasized and spread through her liver, her kidneys, into her bones and her brain. Will has yet to forgive himself for "letting" this happen to her.

Much of your suffering has come about through your own actions. From what you've described, you do something that places yourself in trouble, and from there, things roll downhill as they normally do. Lani wasn't in that situation: she tried to take care of herself, and Will, and the cancer simply came. There's little information regarding the how and why of this disease, but what information we have has not come from an ancient book which has been mistranslated, misused, and degraded by the political will of those who wanted nothing more than to control the ignorant and weak willed, and were willing to keep people ignorant in order to accomplish their objectives. It has come from men and women who were unwilling to accept suffering, and were willing to challenge their own ignorance.

This, you see, led to experimentation, examination, study, education. We went from being a mass of primitive hunter-gatherers, subsisting on what edible plants we could find and what small game we could kill to people capable of remaking our world, even to the point of it's near total destruction if we so chose. Thankfully, we have not chosen; self-preservation is a powerful tool in its own right, and it's worth a degree of respect. As such, we've learned means of helping those who suffer, mainly because we don't want to suffer ourselves.

And we've gained some insight into ovarian cancer, and we've learned a few strategies to combat it. We've learned through trial and error, we've recognized that suffering is pointless, and we're now doing what we can to alleviate it.

There are choices in life, and not the least of these is whether you should live responsibly or irresponsibly. Responsible actions are those which take a longer view, which mandate that we examine the repercussions of the choices we make. We try to teach our children to do this, in hopes that they will learn from our mistakes and avoid making them themselves. It doesn't always work, but hope does spring eternal. When we live irresponsibly, the results are unfortunate, but what results is only suffering for those who have been unwillingly dragged into the vortex.

Lani suffered. She tried to do what was responsible, but learned that she was too late. And now, Will suffers. He misses Lani.

The authors you seem to want us to read are Hell-bent (intentional) on telling us there's something noble in suffering, or that the highest call of man is to help others accept their suffering. The more I read of Mother Teresa and her order, and the pitiable little they did to end the suffering of others, the more I become enraged. Suffering is not to be endured, it's not noble, it's pointless and wasteful. I don't want to be ministered to, I want the suffering to stop, and I want to follow a path which doesn't just alleviate suffering, but prevents it in the first place, which was one of the key goals of civilization in the first place.

And if you had any interest in preventing suffering, which is one hell of a lot more noble cause than "ministering" to people, you would have read the book, and we wouldn't be wasting our time with this silliness.

ETA: I'm now going to go watch some porn, just so I can get the slime from Kathy's "arguments" out of my head.

 

[Moochie]

From the little I've seen of her while I've been here, that's exactly what will happen. She will just go away one day and come back when she thinks this round of nonsense has been forgotten, to try to peddle the same .

No. Her and hubby Christian Dude's MO appears to be regular blitzes of this place to reach new readers and re-exasperate previous ones. They're both hoping some of the dreck they post here will rub off, but ultimately they don't care, since the main thing for them is to come here and proselytize.


M.

 

[Elizabeth I]

No. Her and hubby Christian Dude's MO appears to be regular blitzes of this place to reach new readers and re-exasperate previous ones. They're both hoping some of the dreck they post here will rub off, but ultimately they don't care, since the main thing for them is to come here and proselytize.

M.

So they're on some kind of regular "hunt the atheist" schedule? Ooh, maybe there's an atheist season we don't even know about, like duck season and deer season.

 

[Ocelot]

His response is counter to mine which is faith.

But what is Erhmans response? It's all well and good telling me more bnout your response but it doesn't answer the question.

"Counter to yours"... So now I know what his response isn't. I'm still little the wiser as to what his response is.

 

[dafydd]

Kathy,there are no emotionally damaged,vulnerable people like you here.No easy meat,no recruits for your cult.Give it up and go and preach elsewhere,it's like water off a duck's back to us.

 

[ejk]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that ...

Kathy, why won't you respond to the simple request to state your understanding of what Ehrman suggests as a response, and your critique of it? You just keep repeating your own analysis, but refuse to paraphrase the ideas in the book you supposedly read (listened to). Why won't you do that?

 

[Moochie]

So they're on some kind of regular "hunt the atheist" schedule? Ooh, maybe there's an atheist season we don't even know about, like duck season and deer season.

Probably closer to the truth than we might think. Those of us who've been following their path through here are very well aware that their "armor" is well-nigh impenetrable, thanks to Chuck's total brainsoak of biblical hogwash.

Neither of them is able to be engaged in any meaningful conversation, let alone debate, so reading threads begun by either means that you have considerable intestinal fortitude, or are a glutton for punishment.*


M.

* "Punishment" being the operative word. It seems to be somewhat of a fetish with these types.

 

[Hokulele]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that tells me no matter how crummy or painful life gets for me or those around me God will one day wipe every tear away and restore us. Why he allows so much suffering is still and will always be a mystery.

If you had even bothered to listen to the book, you might possibly realize what a cold, heartless, selfish response this is. Here's a hint, Ehrman's suggestion will improve crummy and painful lives now, rather than your cruel response of simply letting others suffer since it is their problem (or God's), not yours.

Our life is but a vapor that will pass quickly, but what we do while we are alive is what matters. I accept God on his terms, this does not mean I always understand him or why he allows certain things in life.

You are half right.

Perhaps I have more understanding and empathy for others who suffer and this is the reason God allowed it in my own life.

Or, as your response to my question demonstrates, perhaps not.

In Don Pipers book 90 Minutes in Heaven he talks about this same subject. He went through way worse and I suggest you read his book to seek another perspective on this question of suffering. He has been able to minister to others who went through some of the same suffering he endured and feels that it was God's purpose in bringing him back from the dead in a fatal car crash even though what he went through was nothing none of us would want to go through. Worth a read.

Before another book is brought into the discussion, let's finish up the first one.

What is Ehrman's response to the issue of suffering and do you think it would help, hurt, or make no difference?

 

[tsig]

So they're on some kind of regular "hunt the atheist" schedule? Ooh, maybe there's an atheist season we don't even know about, like duck season and deer season.

I tell ya it's wabbit season.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I tell ya it's wabbit season.

Be vewy quiet, I'm hunting hewetics...

 

[joobz]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that tells me no matter how crummy or painful life gets for me or those around me God will one day wipe every tear away and restore us. Why he allows so much suffering is still and will always be a mystery.

You didn't really read or listen to the book, did you?

 

[temporalillusion]

The challenge was too great.

 

[Altered Statesman]

No. Her and hubby Christian Dude's MO appears to be regular blitzes of this place to reach new readers and re-exasperate previous ones.
M.

I agree with that. While I may not have made many posts, I've read a bucket load and think that is part of it.

When I read posts of the ilk that we are discussing now, I often think back to the thread that got me reading this board in the first place. It was one I read while I was lurking on here about a gentleman who thought he was being controled by others and similar things like that. He was eventually convinced that he was mentally ill and sought treatment which appeared to help the situation.

I'm not saying all Jebbus lovers are mentally ill, just some things typed by some of them seem delusional. If you replaced 'God' or 'Jesus' with 'Alien' or 'Spirit' or another equally real creation, some posts would read the same and make as much sense.

The bible has a nice message (if you ignor the bad bits) but if you truly believe in an invisible man in the sky that created everything and live your life by those beliefs, then you are truly delusional.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll see Kathy or someone like her in hell. This is because I've heard many different people just as passionate about Jesus etc. saying what God's word means, so one of them must be bearing false witness or whatever it is called because the bible can't contradict itself therefore someone has to be right and wrong.

There is enough reasonable doubt created to believe that God doesn't exist and that's as far as you can go to prove a negative.

 

[MattC]

The challenge was too great.

Now now, have faith.

~ Matt

 

[Cactus Wren]

I think you mean, "his shoe".

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that.

 

[dafydd]

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that.

I'll bet that Kathy swept him off his foot.

 

[tsig]

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed that.

Maybe the leg regenerated!!

 

[supercorgi]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that tells me no matter how crummy or painful life gets for me or those around me God will one day wipe every tear away and restore us.

Hi Kathy,

Not having had the time to read this book, could you please summarize the author's viewpoint on suffering and the response we should make to suffering? I would be very interested. You don't need to give me your opinion on his view point, I would just like to know what his view point is. I'd like to thank you in advance for lending me the knowledge you have gained from reading this book which I, unfortunately, do not have the opportunity to read.

 

[Moochie]

I agree with that. While I may not have made many posts, I've read a bucket load and think that is part of it.

When I read posts of the ilk that we are discussing now, I often think back to the thread that got me reading this board in the first place. It was one I read while I was lurking on here about a gentleman who thought he was being controled by others and similar things like that. He was eventually convinced that he was mentally ill and sought treatment which appeared to help the situation.

I'm not saying all Jebbus lovers are mentally ill, just some things typed by some of them seem delusional. If you replaced 'God' or 'Jesus' with 'Alien' or 'Spirit' or another equally real creation, some posts would read the same and make as much sense.

The bible has a nice message (if you ignor the bad bits) but if you truly believe in an invisible man in the sky that created everything and live your life by those beliefs, then you are truly delusional.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll see Kathy or someone like her in hell. This is because I've heard many different people just as passionate about Jesus etc. saying what God's word means, so one of them must be bearing false witness or whatever it is called because the bible can't contradict itself therefore someone has to be right and wrong.

There is enough reasonable doubt created to believe that God doesn't exist and that's as far as you can go to prove a negative.

Thank you for your very kind post.

Unlike KK and those like her, I have a very different "take" on what I read in the bible, and basically it's this:

Original Sin is humankind's gaining the ability to think original thoughts

Hell is our failure to put this ability to good use

Heaven is our ability to transcend all the dichotomies our ability to think original thoughts throws up.

Simple words that describe a conundrum most of us are faced with every day.


M.