Merged bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limo/ You might be...

[SmartyPants]

DOH! I had this nice lengthy response but i quoted someone with a URL and it voided my post..lol

Long story short...Dad was a cop and worked security detail when politicians came to town was trained in the academy and by secret service how to react in those situations. SO you would expect that if they trained police etc.. to protect lower level politicians the training for the ones protecting the president should be unriveled and more exacting...

In this assasination not one secret service guy jumped to shield the president. Isn't that what they are paid to do? or were they paid to do something else that day?

First of all, while this might be protocol in some situations, I doubt this holds true for every situation. If it does now, it doesn't appear to be the case in 1963. There's no evidence or testimony suggesting that reversing the car would be the correct maneuver. To the contrary, all testimony from the Secret Service suggests that hitting the gas and finding the nearest hospital was the top priority. Furthermore, as stated before by me and JohnG, it makes little to zero sense to back up, hit the rest of the motorcade blocking any exit, and then put everyone else in danger.

Secondly, Clint Hill, the agent assigned to protect the First Lady, did indeed jump onto the limo and used his body to shield the president. The reason you did not see any agents on the limousine is because the President requested that they not do so. Likewise, he also requested not to have the bubble top attached against their advice. If he had followed the Secret Service's advice, he may very be alive today.

Clearly, the Secret Service is not guilty of murder.

 

[I Ratant]

Your point is well taken. The car never stopped. Never. According to testimony though, the car does slow down to about 7 or 8 mph before the final shot. However, since the car was going 11mph immediately before and all the way down Elm Street, the slow down was negligible and didn't give Oswald much more of an advantage than he already had.

Bugliosi, Reclaiming History (315n, 350n).

Conspiracists often overemphasize the slow down as if it were a stop, which it's not

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Zapruder film sequences relating the car position in each frame to fixed items in the infield.
The rate of change of position (velocity) is pretty constant between each frame, during this sequence.
(red line between each frame and an infield object)

 

[SmartyPants]

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Zapruder film sequences relating the car position in each frame to fixed items in the infield.
The rate of change of position (velocity) is pretty constant between each frame, during this sequence.

I understand where you're going with this. From what I've read, there was a slow down, but that slow down (if there was one; I'll concede that there might not have been) was so negligible that it made virtually no difference to shooter, Oswald. When I view the video, I see a very slight slow down, but it really made no difference, and that can seen in the video by observing the positioning of Hill and Moorman.

ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvbvvAYimgM

 

[I Ratant]

I understand where you're going with this. From what I've read, there was a slow down, but that slow down (if there was one; I'll concede that there might not have been) was so negligible that it made virtually no difference to shooter, Oswald. When I view the video, I see a very slight slow down, but it really made no difference, and that can seen in the video by observing the positioning of Hill and Moorman.

ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvbvvAYimgM

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Here's a rough plot for the film frames during the third shot....

 

[brobradh77]

Damnit that URL did it to me again..lol

I'll make my point simple.

You are walking, driving, whatever...You get to a certain spot and you hear a gun shot in your area....Sniper fire...you dont know where he is but you do know he did not fire at you until you were at that point..so what do you do? Back to a spot he didnt take a shot because there wasnt one..or continue forward knowing he know has you in his sights?

Snipers work on opportunity..if oswald had a shot sooner he would have taken it..As far as putting everyone else in danger..lets see..the cars were moving so slow anyone with a pulse could have got out of the way and to be brutally honest the gov't values the presidents life more than yours or mine...

I feel they did not respond corrrectly and I would be willing to bet that the protocal for sniper fire is never to drive into it. Does not matter if it is 2009 or 1963 my dad was a cop in the 70's.

 

[I Ratant]

Had the limosine slowed and stopped per the CT fantasy, the position changes in the Zapruder film would have looked like this....
Its position change relative to the fixed objects would diminish to zero, and then begin changing again as the limosine began to move.
This doesn't happen.
It just doesn't!

 

[SmartyPants]

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Here's a rough plot for the film frames during the third shot....

That's a good graphic. You understand that I'm not saying the car stopped, right?

 

[WildCat]

Damnit that URL did it to me again..lol

I'll make my point simple.

You are walking, driving, whatever...You get to a certain spot and you hear a gun shot in your area....Sniper fire...you dont know where he is but you do know he did not fire at you until you were at that point..so what do you do? Back to a spot he didnt take a shot because there wasnt one..or continue forward knowing he know has you in his sights?

Snipers work on opportunity..if oswald had a shot sooner he would have taken it..As far as putting everyone else in danger..lets see..the cars were moving so slow anyone with a pulse could have got out of the way and to be brutally honest the gov't values the presidents life more than yours or mine...

I feel they did not respond corrrectly and I would be willing to bet that the protocal for sniper fire is never to drive into it. Does not matter if it is 2009 or 1963 my dad was a cop in the 70's.

You do know the shots came from the rear, don't you?

 

[SmartyPants]

Damnit that URL did it to me again..lol

I'll make my point simple.

You are walking, driving, whatever...You get to a certain spot and you hear a gun shot in your area....Sniper fire...you dont know where he is but you do know he did not fire at you until you were at that point..so what do you do? Back to a spot he didnt take a shot because there wasnt one..or continue forward knowing he know has you in his sights?.

Actually, this makes things very confusing. Are you saying that if someone is shooting at me, I should move backward? Back to the spot he was aiming at me? Back to a spot where there's no exit? Back to a spot where I run into other cars, therby putting other lives in danger too?

Look, if someone's shooting at you, and you're in car, and you move forward to a freeway at 100mph toward a hospital, you're telling me it's better to move backward? Where should the rest of the motorcade back up, and how far? Are you going to provide evidence of this protocol and show that it was protocol on 11/22/63? Did you read the links I provided in the prior post?

They weren't driving into sniper fire, by moving forward -quickly-onto Stemmons Freeway, the were moving out of it.

I feel they did not respond corrrectly

Are you saying that the Secret Service is guilty of murder here? I hope not, because they provided the president plenty of protection that day (offering to ride on the limo, providing the bubbletop)

and I would be willing to bet that the protocal for sniper fire is never to drive into it. Does not matter if it is 2009 or 1963 my dad was a cop in the 70's.

Again, Greer wasn't driving into sniper fire. He was driving away from it without obstruction...by getting onto the freeway...fast

Actually, it does matter when this takes place. You're saying it's protocol, which means there's some kind of body, I guess, that decides what to do in case of an assassination attempt. So, when did this policy begin? Since when is not policy to find the nearest exit?

Also, I'd appreciate it if you could respond to the answers I gave you before:

You:

In this assasination not one secret service guy jumped to shield the president. Isn't that what they are paid to do? or were they paid to do something else that day?

Me:

Clint Hill, the agent assigned to protect the First Lady, did indeed jump onto the limo and used his body to shield the president. The reason you did not see any agents on the limousine is because the President requested that they not do so. Likewise, he also requested not to have the bubble top attached against their advice. If he had followed the Secret Service's advice, he may very be alive today.

Be sure to check the link from before. If you're suggesting that they were paid off to not protect the president, why so? And where's your evidence?

 

[SmartyPants]

You do know the shots came from the rear, don't you?

Exactly. Thanks for simplifying my point.

 

[dtugg]

Wow, three different shooters at Dealy Plaza, one being the driver? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that roundhead believes that. He does believe in much stupider crap.

 

[I Ratant]

That's a good graphic. You understand that I'm not saying the car stopped, right?

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You haven't, but Ctwinkies say that all the time.

 

[I Ratant]

Wow, three different shooters at Dealy Plaza, one being the driver? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that roundhead believes that. He does believe in much stupider crap.

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68 shooters.
http://davesjfk.com/rashomon.html
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And none of them Jackie, who had the most reason!

 

[brobradh77]

I give up..lol i can't seem to get y'all to understand the point of how a sniper works....The first shot taken is when you enter the killing zone so to continue forward keeps you there...If he had the oportuniy to shoot the president sooner why didn't he? If he had time to draw down on him why didnt he take the shot when the president was closer to him? Because he took the shot the instant he could...thats the point of the arguement.....

You are trying to tell me if you walked out of a house and got shot at you would just continue running down he street instead of getting back in the house...


I never saw a limo take off at 100 mph when the shots started..I never saw any acceleration at all unitl the birdge. 100 mph wont out run a bullet and frm his vantage point that speed would not offer much of an advantage

 

[I Ratant]

Well, why didn't Oswald shoot when the motorcade was on Houston, coming directly towards the TSBD?
Mebbe he fingered that all those Secret Service agents with their eyes in the fronts of their heads would SEE him up there!
And mebbe the governor was in the way.
Why wait until the motorcade was past the TSBD?
Because the Secret Service agents eyes are in the fronts of their heads.
And LHOLN has a good view of the target unobstructed by anything, and it's not a difficult target.
And it wasn't until the third and last shot that the attack was fully comprehended by anyone!

 

[A W Smith]

I give up..lol i can't seem to get y'all to understand the point of how a sniper works....The first shot taken is when you enter the killing zone so to continue forward keeps you there...If he had the oportuniy to shoot the president sooner why didn't he? If he had time to draw down on him why didnt he take the shot when the president was closer to him? Because he took the shot the instant he could...thats the point of the arguement.....

Yes i get your point. Even though the limo at one point was closer to Oswald right after it made the turn. It is not an easier shot simply because you would need a sweeping motion left to right while standing to make your shot. Much easier to shoot at an object moving away from you with the barrel resting on the boxes. Like shooting at a cowboy riding off into the sunset. Take note that his first shot missed probably for those reasons. But the driver could not know that. Since all he knew was that he heard the shots from behind. Also evidenced by Connelly's head turn. His impulse was to drive away. Also it is documented that people in the motorcade behind that had not yet made the turn looked up to the window after the shots were fired. So Tell us why you would back into the killing zone?

You are trying to tell me if you walked out of a house and got shot at you would just continue running down he street instead of getting back in the house...

If the door locks behind you. YES!!!

I never saw a limo take off at 100 mph when the shots started..I never saw any acceleration at all unitl the birdge. 100 mph wont out run a bullet and frm his vantage point that speed would not offer much of an advantage

I see acceleration well before the bridge, Shortly after Jackie reaches over the trunk which is about 175-225 feet till the bridge.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I dont know how many shooters there were, two certainly(the driver) and the shot which he took in the adam's apple from the front(another shooter independant of the driver) So at least two, perhaps more.My opinion is 3 or more.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42834

 

[I Ratant]

Stable shooting position..
With a 91/38 Carcano..
The target is going almost directly away, and rising in the field of view, very easy to shoot, reload, shoot, ... I got off 5 shots in the presumed time frame, changing targets at the Dealey distances each time.
And NOT using the scope, which being the same model as that on Oswald's rifle.. (Still being produced, and still unsuitable for a rifle larger than .22 LR.)
The cross hairs in mine fell out of alignment with 10 shots.
Photos I received from Howard Donahue ( Mortal Error) of one of his Carcanos, and mine.

 

[SmartyPants]

You are trying to tell me if you walked out of a house and got shot at you would just continue running down he street instead of getting back in the house...

Are you trying to tell me that if you outside walking toward your house and were shot, you'd go in reverse?

I never saw a limo take off at 100 mph when the shots started..I never saw any acceleration at all unitl the birdge. 100 mph wont out run a bullet and frm his vantage point that speed would not offer much of an advantage

The limousine accelerated before the bridge, out of the line of fire. Yes, 100mph won't out run a bullet, but it sure as hell makes it harder to hit your target, especially when it's moving out of your line of sight.

Maybe you should make a trip to Dealy Plaza, then tell me that accelerating toward Stemmons Freeway doesn't offer much of an advantage.

 

[SmartyPants]

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You haven't, but Ctwinkies say that all the time.

That's true, and I know that saying it slowed down gives them ammunition (no pun intended), allowing them misrepresent what happened (if it did slow down), but from my view, and I think the vast majority of reliable eyewitnesses and authors, conclude that the limousine slowed very slightly, but did not stop. I think this is a fair analysis of what I'm trying to convey:

http://home.comcast.net/~the-puzzle-palace/Mantik1.htm

I'm not trying to make things easier for them, nor I am suggesting that you're misrepresenting anything to make things harder for them, but I do think our views are arguable. In any case, we're on the same side here. Fair enough?