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Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

I guess I'm misunderstanding what the root is if what you're asserting. In what system is it that the rich don't get access to the health care system they're paying into? They should have access to any system they pay into. Not to mention the fact that they do have a vested interest in people, the little people, not having to spend so much of their money on healthcare. If I'm poor and I have access to good advance medical care rather than going to the emergency room, I have more money to pump into the economy in general.
 
But that's not the case, at least so far as I understand it from this and other threads. The healthcare costs for people in employment are met partly by the employee and partly by the employer. We already discussed how General Motors spends more on healthcare coverage for its employees than it does on steel. How the US motor industry was accusing Canada of unfairly subsidising its industry because they weren't hamstrung by healthcare costs. How the evidence is that US industry in general is being rendered uncompetitive by this.

Medicaid is for the very poor, who are mostly unemployed. How many people holding down an actual job qualify for Medicaid? Not a lot. Who is this rich person running such a sweatshop that Medicaid is taking care of his workers' medical needs? Doesn't happen as far as I know. Medicare is for people over the age of 65. Beyond some subsidy towards insurance costs of people with chronic conditions that make them uninsurable, these taxes are not paying to keep the workforce healthy.

Rolfe.


The US has a mixture of medical services for people who fall below income thresholds, and whose employers do not participate in a health plan. A good portion of those covered by public health initiatives at the state and federal levels are referred to as "the working poor."

As many are acutely aware, there is an inbetween stage where people earn "too much" to qualify for public assistance, but not enough to afford healthcare. Many do not have healthcare through their employer either. These people have zero options. There are millions of Americans in this situation.

In addition to labour, the reality is that anybody who owns a business benefits from having a healthy customer population, too. People who are immobile do not travel or go to restaurants, the blind from diabetes complications do not go to movies, and people who need heart surgery do not ride bicycles. The exception being healthcare, of course.
 
I guess I'm misunderstanding what the root is if what you're asserting. In what system is it that the rich don't get access to the health care system they're paying into? They should have access to any system they pay into.

You'd think...

Most public health initiatives are available to all citizens within their catchment, but the very large programs in the US have a means test. You must prove you require public assistance to qualify for these programs.

Similar to, say, income assistance, food stamps, &c.
 
The US has a mixture of medical services for people who fall below income thresholds, and whose employers do not participate in a health plan. A good portion of those covered by public health initiatives at the state and federal levels are referred to as "the working poor."

As many are acutely aware, there is an inbetween stage where people earn "too much" to qualify for public assistance, but not enough to afford healthcare. Many do not have healthcare through their employer either. These people have zero options. There are millions of Americans in this situation.

In addition to labour, the reality is that anybody who owns a business benefits from having a healthy customer population, too. People who are immobile do not travel or go to restaurants, the blind from diabetes complications do not go to movies, and people who need heart surgery do not ride bicycles. The exception being healthcare, of course.


OK, if you stretch it that far, I see what you mean. It's back to what I was saying about healthcare being a public good (just pimping my TLA nomination here), and not just benefiting the immediate recipient. But I was actully referring to Unloved Rebel's post saying

Conversatives think those who contribute the most should have the best chance.


I was pointing out that so far as tax-funded healthcare in the USA goes, those who contribute most get nothing. Which is rather different from the situation Unloved Rebel seemed to be describing.

I'm actually agreeing with the Music Teacher here.

Rolfe.
 
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I guess I'm misunderstanding what the root is if what you're asserting. In what system is it that the rich don't get access to the health care system they're paying into? They should have access to any system they pay into. Not to mention the fact that they do have a vested interest in people, the little people, not having to spend so much of their money on healthcare. If I'm poor and I have access to good advance medical care rather than going to the emergency room, I have more money to pump into the economy in general.


Again, can I explain. Unloved Rebel was defending the US system by saying that US citizens nelieve that those who contribute most should get the most benefit. I was pointing out that in fact those who contribute most intheir taxed to the publicly-funded US healthcare service don't get to access it on their own behalf.

Indeed, they (and everyone) benefit indirectly from living in a society where the poor and the elderly are taken care of. But they still have to shell out all over again for anything they need for themselves.

Rolfe.
 
You'd think...

Most public health initiatives are available to all citizens within their catchment, but the very large programs in the US have a means test. You must prove you require public assistance to qualify for these programs.

Similar to, say, income assistance, food stamps, &c.


And that's kind of where we came in. Dan and some others seem determined that publicly-funded healthcare should be treated the same way as assistance with food and housing - you only get it if you're very poor, and even then you have to deserve it.

Most other countries find that everything works rather better if you treat healthcare like the fire service or schools or the public library - paid for not on a risk-based basis but on an ability-to-pay basis, and available for all citizens to benefit from at need.

Unloved Rebel, however, thinks this is just "the left-wingers stuck on ideology" and wants to throw up on his keyboard at the very idea. He thinks the US system is great because those who contribute most, get the most. I was trying to point out to him that no, they don't. They get to pay twice.

Rolfe.
 
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You'd think...

Most public health initiatives are available to all citizens within their catchment, but the very large programs in the US have a means test. You must prove you require public assistance to qualify for these programs.

Similar to, say, income assistance, food stamps, &c.

But apparently, working out who's entitled to the service and then providing the service only to them ends up costing more than simply providing everyone with healthcare regardless. Or at least, that's the way it seems.
 
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And that's kind of where we came in. Dan and some others seem determined that publicly-funded healthcare should be treated the same way as assistance with food and housing - you only get it if you're very poor, and even then you have to deserve it.

Most other countries find that everything works rather better if you treat healthcare like the fire service or schools or the public library - paid for not on a risk-based basis but on an ability-to-pay basis, and available for all citizens to benefit from at need.

Unloved Rebel, however, thinks this is just "the left-wingers stuck on ideology" and wants to throw up on his keyboard at the very idea. He thinks the US system is great because those who contribute most, get the most. I was trying to point out to him that no, they don't. They get to pay twice.

Rolfe.

Ah, I get your point now. I was assuming we were talking about a hypothetical universal system and that someone was claiming that rich people wouldn't get to access it. I understand now.
 
I thought we were actually agreeing with each other! Possibly I wasn't as clear as I might have been.

Rolfe.
 
But apparently, working out who's entitled to the service and then providing the service only to them ends up costing more than simply providing everyone with healthcare regardless. Or at least, that's the way it seems.

I think so.

Not only are the administrative costs higher in such a system, but the benefits of universality are not obtained. eg: the people who fall above qualification income, but below affordability income contribute to externality costs.

eg: a person who is contageous with tuberculosis because s/he can't afford treatment is just as big a threat to a rich guy as a poor guy. It's in everybody's interest that this gets addressed proactively.

Just because somebody has a high income doesn't mean they live in a bubble (some think they do. OK, some sort of do... drive from their gated community to the executive parking space, up the private elevator to their office...). But the point is that their kid will use a drinking fountain at the park, and suddenly the wisdom of preventive medicine for all becomes apparent.
 
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Unloved Rebel, however, thinks this is just "the left-wingers stuck on ideology" and wants to throw up on his keyboard at the very idea. He thinks the US system is great because those who contribute most, get the most. I was trying to point out to him that no, they don't. They get to pay twice.
And the real problem is the middle class, who pay into the system without getting anything out of it, and then struggle to find the money to pay for their own health care costs. At least the rich can afford to bypass it and probably would anyway, ala public education.

Which is a bit of an odd situation, now that I think of it. I can envision arguments for a purely private system, but is anyone who prefers the US health care system arguing that public education, or public libraries, or any other public service be restricted to just the destitute? Why is health care different?

The only other public services provided currently that are restricted in such a way (AFAIK) are welfare and food stamps, which makes more sense because they are essentially just monetary subsidies rather than services.
 
Now that I've actually posted in the thread, let me include thanks to Rolfe for the great analysis in the early pages. I'm a generally pro-"free market"er who has been pulled to the left by the evidence on certain issues in recent years, notably on universal health care. The evidence I've seen seems to point to it being an unequivocally better option, even along such traditionally "conservative" lines like reducing cost and bureaucracy.
 
And the real problem is the middle class, who pay into the system without getting anything out of it, and then struggle to find the money to pay for their own health care costs. At least the rich can afford to bypass it and probably would anyway, ala public education.

Which is a bit of an odd situation, now that I think of it. I can envision arguments for a purely private system, but is anyone who prefers the US health care system arguing that public education, or public libraries, or any other public service be restricted to just the destitute? Why is health care different?

The only other public services provided currently that are restricted in such a way (AFAIK) are welfare and food stamps, which makes more sense because they are essentially just monetary subsidies rather than services.

Unfortunately, the answer to that question is a resounding yes. People who support vouchers for private schools (or even the elimination of public schools altogether on the extreme end) are arguing, effectively, for a de-systematized school system that makes sure we stratify education by class; who can pay and who can't. I'm by no means claiming that public schools function perfectly but it's better than than the alternative.
 
Thanks to Aerosolben for your kind words. Honestly, the more I hear about the US healthcare system the more shocked I get. Every time some forum member says something about not having the money to see a doctor or fill a prescription I get a physical shock.

The weirdest part of it all is the cognitive dissonance. So many Americans really honestly believe they have the best, the most superior system in the world. They don't believe you can have a heart-lung transplant or stuff like that on the NHS, whereas of course you can. The only limiting factor is availability of donor organs. They believe their healthcare is free from government restriction or interference, but then there's a thread elsewhere discussing a now-dead forum member who didn't get a heart-lung transplant (for CF) because his "HMO" disallowed it. I don't even really understand what an HMO is.

There are still people like Unloved Rebel who just announce it's all socialist/communist ideology. We have had Jerome da Gnome and Beerina and others simply announcing that we are "less free" than they are, when the truth is the opposite.

I've learned a lot having this discussion. Now, since they say that pimping yourself is entirely within the rules, can I mention the Language Award to any other appreciative posters?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139016

Rolfe.
 
People who support vouchers for private schools (or even the elimination of public schools altogether on the extreme end) are arguing, effectively, for a de-systematized school system that makes sure we stratify education by class; who can pay and who can't.
This doesn't appear to address my point. First, voucher supporters still think everyone is entitled to government support of their education, they just want to change the structure of it (for good or for ill). Second, your hypothetical end result apparently has the poor losing their access to government services (or the practical equivalent) - I was asking about support for a scenario where the well-off lose access to government services.

That said, I could see an extension of this scenario which might. If education were directly monetized through a voucher system, I could see someone then arguing distributing vouchers proportionally based on income (need-based grants, if you will). This would require full dissolution of the public school system as well to work, though.
 
The weirdest part of it all is the cognitive dissonance. So many Americans really honestly believe they have the best, the most superior system in the world.
I'd say ignorance - there's a number of facts that simply go against people's preconceived notions of how such a system SHOULD work. Plus the confusion over application of "best" - the US is probably still the leader in medical research.

In my experience, many Americans just BELIEVE it would have to be vastly more expensive to have UHC. Discovering the low administrative overhead of Medicare came as a shock to me, I recall. Politicians really need to hit the conservative points with UHC proposals - easy transition, lowered expenditures, cutting bureaucracy, lowered overhead for small business, etc. There'd be resistance to believe at first, but I feel like the conservative intelligencia would fracture under factual pressure.

I've learned a lot having this discussion. Now, since they say that pimping yourself is entirely within the rules, can I mention the Language Award to any other appreciative posters?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139016
Sneaky - I've already voted though...
 
But there's no link there so I can't go and read it in context. I suspect it's a lot funnier in context.

Besides, like I said, she's factually incorrect. Woman is the only species that menstruates like that. I have literally no idea why.

I'm pimping a bit because in November I had a post get nominated about a squillion times, then near the end of the month Dr Adequate suddenly decided this was a good time to start a thread to showcase some of the scintillating invective he just happened to have on his hard drive. I think in the end I lost by one vote. To the post that was the runaway winner in the overall 2008 Language Award.

I didn't solicit a single vote that time, and I have Learned my Lesson. I also offer bribes.

Still, could have been worse. Poor Fowlsound/Ducky could have decided to pour his heart out onto the forum two days earlier. There's no point anyone else trying this month. My claim to fame there is that I managed to be the first to nominate him.

Rolfe.
 
This doesn't appear to address my point. First, voucher supporters still think everyone is entitled to government support of their education, they just want to change the structure of it (for good or for ill). Second, your hypothetical end result apparently has the poor losing their access to government services (or the practical equivalent) - I was asking about support for a scenario where the well-off lose access to government services.

That said, I could see an extension of this scenario which might. If education were directly monetized through a voucher system, I could see someone then arguing distributing vouchers proportionally based on income (need-based grants, if you will). This would require full dissolution of the public school system as well to work, though.

No, they think that they should get their money back to spend it where they wish. If tax dollars go to schools, these folks believe that if they view their local public school is failing, they should get a voucher for their portion and take it eslewhere, namely a private/parochial school.

Look, if I get my money back in voucher form, it no longer goes to public schools. I think the public schools are failing but the private school down the road is a better school. So do 500 other families. Let's say I get back 5K in voucher form but the year's tuition is 10K. I make good money so I can afford to pick up the extra but 60% of my neighbors can't. Their ONLY option is the public school from which the private school my kids now attend just stole the best teachers for more pay so know they get by with less experienced, lower payed teachers who are beholden to federally mandated tests while my kids get to go to a school that doesn't have to take those tests and is freed up to do things that are more creative, child-centered and effective.

My kids get a better eduaction because I can afford it. I "lost gov't support" but I got my money back. People are fine with government programs as long as they can choose to pull their money out at any time. What they fail to see is that there is no economic or social advantage to having a whole underclass of people and that, at some point, we have to deal with the undereducated in ways that cost more than if we had just educated them appropriately in the first place. For instance: we spend about 30-40K a year to incarcerate your average prisoner. If we had just spent an extra 2 or 3K to enhance their education (boosting their funding to about 8K per year to educate), they likely wouldn't need to commit crimes. The same with health care. If we just all pitched in, we wouldn't be stuck with huge non-payments of clinic/ER bills. It may not seem fair but it's better than what we have now. Of course, your average con would just say, "just let them die" but that is not a good argument for several reasons. You don't want un or undereducated people just like you don't want un or underinsured folks.
 
I'd say ignorance - there's a number of facts that simply go against people's preconceived notions of how such a system SHOULD work. Plus the confusion over application of "best" - the US is probably still the leader in medical research.


Well, as the biggest and richest superpower on the face of the globe, and the one that managed to put a man on the moon, I should bloody well hope so.

Mind you, not sure it's that clear cut is you start to control for population size. Did I mention the Wellcome Trust? "The world's largest medical research charity funding research into human and animal health."

In my experience, many Americans just BELIEVE it would have to be vastly more expensive to have UHC. Discovering the low administrative overhead of Medicare came as a shock to me, I recall. Politicians really need to hit the conservative points with UHC proposals - easy transition, lowered expenditures, cutting bureaucracy, lowered overhead for small business, etc. There'd be resistance to believe at first, but I feel like the conservative intelligencia would fracture under factual pressure.


I'm quite shocked by all the knee-jerk declarations that "socialism" is the way to hell in a handbasket. We wouldn't mind a bit more of it here. There's a lot more than just subsidising a few lazy scroungers. The lazy scroungers are just an inevitable side-effect of a decent safety-net. Unless you make the safety net absolutely intolerable, which is unconscionable, there's always going to be some low-hair-line knuckle-dragger who's going to prefer to relax in the safety net to getting off his backside and doing some work. But who would want to live that sort of life anyway? But sometimes it seems as if many of the American posters would rather have almost any other alternative but one in which someone who hasn't been a paragon of abstemiousness and industry gets something for nothing. Even if it's a lifesaving drug.

We're big enough and rich enough that we can afford to subsidise a few scumbags if it's the price of making as sure as we can be sure that nobody dies because they can't afford what they need to live.

When we say, look, never mind the law enforcement and the foreign diplomacy and so on, you still have a lot of socialism. Schools, libraries, fire brigade, street lighting, lots more. Do you think people should only be allowed to use the public school system, or borrow a book from the library, or have your house saved from a blaze, if you're on the breadline? That everybody else, the people who are actually paying for these services through their taxes, should be forbidden from using them, and forced to pay all over again for their own services? And amazingly enough, some of these people say absolutely yes. They don't approve of publicly-provided anything.

Apparently because it's communism. Did the McCarthy era really scar the entire nation that badly?

When I was staying in Michigan last autumn, my hostess and her son had both worked for the highways department. I hadn't realised just how new your country is. I'm used to travelling along roads the bloody Romans built. But in Michigan, the land was all claimed, and nobody had built any proper roads. My hostess and her son were both involved in getting the roads built. He had to go to small landowners and offer them a pot of money to give up their land and move. And some of them didn't want to go and got the gun out and swore to defend their ancestral property. And Frank would say, the State needs your land. And he would get it.

So don't tell me about the Land of the Free. You just can't manage a lot of things without working together, and everyone contributing, and some people having to make sacrifices for the greater good. (But Frank told me about one guy who said, of no, you're paying me ten times what you just offered. Frank said, why? And the farmer said, because this land is 100% top-grade road gravel, and you want to quarry it to build your roads. So Frank got a geological survey done, and the farmer was quite right, and he got his price.)

Of all things that needs to be funded centrally, and paid for on the basis of ability to pay and not perceived risk or use of the system, healthcare is the #1. At the moment your middle classes are being screwed over by the system. They're being taxed even more than we are to fund the socialised part of the system (that they can't access), then they're having to pay through the nose to get insurance cover for themselves. And then when they need it there is a definite possibility that the insurance company will get obstructive and try not to pay out.

But half the population seems to be completely brainwashed. All I got in another thread was repeated posting of "Face it, your system sucks" from one US poster. Now I'm not saying it's perfect. There are always horror stories of people badly treated one way or another. But I have to say, nothing that scares me quite as much as the US system scares me. If someone in Britain isn't getting the treatment they need, you can demonstrate and complain and protest and write to your MP and GET SOMETHING DONE. Because that person is ENTITLED to treatment. But in the US, somebody falls through a crack in the system and gets a big-ticket problem when they don't have adequate insurance and sorry, too bad, them's the breaks, but you're not entitled.

But somehow, in America, "entitlement" is a dirty word.

NO IT'S NOT. You pay your taxes, you're entitled. You make too little money to have to pay tax? You're still entitled. You're a child and you don't have any income? You're still entitled. You're a tax dodger who hasn't contributed? We'll come after you for back taxes and interest and we'll prosecute you and send you to jail, but guess what? You're still entitled.

Because nobody should have to go without medical treatment in a rich western democracy in the 21st century, and an entire country of 300 million people who are so brainwashed that they would reject all the benefits of a system that works so much better elsewhere just because they don't like the word "socialist" or because they can't stand the idea of someone else getting something for nothing, or they believe the pack of big fat lying lies they've been fed about universal healthcare systems, needs a smack in the mouth until it comes to its senses.

Oh yes, and I declare an interest. Some of our politicians are so bloody dazzled by the glitz of the USA that they're buying into this "privatise everything" dogma. If it's Merkan, it must be The Best. If they're not stopped soon, they'll wreck the NHS by trying to apply "market forces" to it. The sooner the USA does something sensible, the better for us.

OK, I'll stop ranting. But I feel awfully sorry for you guys sometimes. KellyB is paying 50% of her household income in medical insurance. nobody should have to do that.

I hope Obama has the sense he appears to have been born with.

Rolfe.
 
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